# CAP AND TRADE THREAD **URL:** \ **Category:** PolitiSUCK\ **Created:** [June 26, 2009, 12:02pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/cap-and-trade-thread/69738 "2009-06-26T12:02:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![ultradriver10000](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/ultradriver10000/32/7397_2.png) [@ultradriver10000](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/ultradriver10000)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 8:52am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/cap-and-trade-thread/69738/81 "2009-06-30T08:52:25Z")
> [@JEG](#): > > yeah if this goes through and becomes law do you have any idea how many small buisnesses will go bankrupt? Hopefully all of them. I only want to be able to buy things from Wal-Mart. Hopefully someday Wal-Mart will be government controlled too. :lol: ---
**Author:** ![Blue\_Eyed\_Devil](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/blue_eyed_devil/32/7292_2.png) [@Blue\_Eyed\_Devil](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Blue_Eyed_Devil)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 8:52am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/cap-and-trade-thread/69738/82 "2009-06-30T08:52:26Z")
> [@JEG](#): > > yeah if this goes through and becomes law do you have any idea how many small buisnesses will go bankrupt? It will suck but why do you say bankrupt? Grow lights? ---
**Author:** ![JEG](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/jeg/32/7246_2.png) [@JEG](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/JEG)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 8:59am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/cap-and-trade-thread/69738/83 "2009-06-30T08:59:58Z")
> [@Blue Eyed Devil](#): > > It will suck but why do you say bankrupt? Grow lights? Do you have any idea what it costs to run a business? If this goes through many people will have to close shop because of the massive tax increases. They would have to almost double their prices just to cover the extra taxes and show any form of profit. Anytime costs go up for a business, people get laid off, costs to the consumer go up, and the economy gets worse. Obama and the Dems truly are completely clueless at this point. YOU CAN NOT RAISE TAXES AND PUT A BURDEN OF THIS MAGNITUDE ON THE PRIVATE SECTOR WHEN WE ARE IN A FINANCIAL CRISIS ALREADY!!! ---
**Author:** ![walter](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/walter/32/7202_2.png) [@walter](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/walter)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 9:13am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/cap-and-trade-thread/69738/84 "2009-06-30T09:13:29Z")
> [@ultradriver10000](#): > > This bill seriously has me questioning if I should even buy a house right now. > > I mean yes the 16K tax credit will be nice if I buy one, but if I seriously get a 1500-2000 increase in cost why even bother? Sure a house is nice, but instead of dropping 200+K on a place and spending a base of ~3500 per year in taxes…I should just keep my apartment. > > 3 year cost: > Think 200k+ invested 5% = ~35,000 > House taxes x 3 years = ~12,000 > Increased energy costs of a house= ~5,000 > Cost of house maintenance= ~10,000 > Possible increase in home value = ~10,000? > Loss of 36K over 3 years > > Rent = $1200 a month totaling 43,200… > > Hell I mind as well rent and never have to worry about anything ever and enjoy my life. Your math sucks. Interest = Tax Deductible Taxes = Tax Deductible Housing Maintenance = $10k? Don’t buy such a shitty house, and don’t spend money that isn’t going to net a return. Comparing increased energy costs is hardly applicable unless you bought a house the same size as your apartment. ---
**Author:** ![walter](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/walter/32/7202_2.png) [@walter](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/walter)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 9:14am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/cap-and-trade-thread/69738/85 "2009-06-30T09:14:09Z")
> [@JEG](#): > > Do you have any idea what it costs to run a business? !! :mamoru: I’d bet he has a heck of a lot better idea than you do. ---
**Author:** ![Blue\_Eyed\_Devil](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/blue_eyed_devil/32/7292_2.png) [@Blue\_Eyed\_Devil](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Blue_Eyed_Devil)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 9:15am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/cap-and-trade-thread/69738/86 "2009-06-30T09:15:55Z")
> [@JEG](#): > > Do you have any idea what it costs to run a business? If this goes through many people will have to close shop because of the massive tax increases. They would have to almost double their prices just to cover the extra taxes and show any form of profit. Anytime costs go up for a business, people get laid off, costs to the consumer go up, and the economy gets worse. Obama and the Dems truly are completely clueless at this point. YOU CAN NOT RAISE TAXES AND PUT A BURDEN OF THIS MAGNITUDE ON THE PRIVATE SECTOR WHEN WE ARE IN A FINANCIAL CRISIS ALREADY!!! Oh, I hear ya and yeah I have some idea of what it costs, I just wondered if you had something specific in mind. Maybe a business that uses a lot of electricity for example newer aluminum mills use electric arc furnaces. This will crush them I would think. Thank God China dumps a shitload of aluminum here. Maybe we can make our windmills from Chinese aluminum. Although at that point the windmills themselves will be made in China. Once all of the factories close here we won’t need much electricity. PERFECT! ---
**Author:** ![Blue\_Eyed\_Devil](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/blue_eyed_devil/32/7292_2.png) [@Blue\_Eyed\_Devil](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Blue_Eyed_Devil)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 9:18am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/cap-and-trade-thread/69738/87 "2009-06-30T09:18:35Z")
> [@walter](#): > > :mamoru: > > I’d bet he has a heck of a lot better idea than you do. Yeah, I laughed a little too. ---
**Author:** ![Zer0DazE](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/zer0daze/32/7624_2.png) [@Zer0DazE](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Zer0DazE)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 9:59am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/cap-and-trade-thread/69738/88 "2009-06-30T09:59:53Z")
> [@ultradriver10000](#): > > That isn’t horrid, I remember when my dad owned our bar paying $500+ a month for electric. LoL > > I mean I’m still buying a house but it isn’t really my choice all together. :spank: > > I do like the idea of a garage though, this will allow me to fix cars for dumb people in A/C. Yeah, it used to be more, but I put the smack down on my old lady for have anything with a switch turned on 24/7. ---
**Author:** ![ultradriver10000](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/ultradriver10000/32/7397_2.png) [@ultradriver10000](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/ultradriver10000)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 10:39am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/cap-and-trade-thread/69738/89 "2009-06-30T10:39:55Z")
> [@walter](#): > > Your math sucks. > > Interest = Tax Deductible > Taxes = Tax Deductible > Housing Maintenance = $10k? Don’t buy such a shitty house, and don’t spend money that isn’t going to net a return. > > Comparing increased energy costs is hardly applicable unless you bought a house the same size as your apartment. I wasn’t saying Interest on a mortgage I was counting that as lost interest from the money I’d have in the bank. How much of a tax decutable would I get from paying property tax? Would it reduce the ~3K I have to pay on my taxes each year? That is the big thing, I’d never buy a house the size of an apartment unless I was in Buffalo. 1500\<1750 sq ft house with no basement, no thanks! I’m just saying generally you loose your ass on a house, unless you can flip it quick. ---
**Author:** ![Blue\_Eyed\_Devil](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/blue_eyed_devil/32/7292_2.png) [@Blue\_Eyed\_Devil](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Blue_Eyed_Devil)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 10:47am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/cap-and-trade-thread/69738/90 "2009-06-30T10:47:12Z")
I don’t think you typically lose your ass (other than the last couple years). The only bad time to build in the last several decades was right after I built.:banghead: If you are lucky enough to only pay$1200/month rent for 30 years (which is not realistic) you would be paying $432000 and have nothing to show for it. Assuming the housing market gets back on track in the next 30 years I should be able to sell my house for well over a million dollars maybe 2 or 3, who knows. ---
**Author:** ![ultradriver10000](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/ultradriver10000/32/7397_2.png) [@ultradriver10000](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/ultradriver10000)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 11:21am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/cap-and-trade-thread/69738/91 "2009-06-30T11:21:50Z")
> [@Blue Eyed Devil](#): > > Assuming the housing market gets back on track in the next 30 years I should be able to sell my house for well over a million dollars maybe 2 or 3, who knows. Want… 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![walter](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/walter/32/7202_2.png) [@walter](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/walter)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 11:39am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/cap-and-trade-thread/69738/92 "2009-06-30T11:39:02Z")
> [@ultradriver10000](#): > > I wasn’t saying Interest on a mortgage I was counting that as lost interest from the money I’d have in the bank. > > How much of a tax decutable would I get from paying property tax? Would it reduce the ~3K I have to pay on my taxes each year? > > That is the big thing, I’d never buy a house the size of an apartment unless I was in Buffalo. 1500\<1750 sq ft house with no basement, no thanks! > > I’m just saying generally you loose your ass on a house, unless you can flip it quick. You are just picking and chosing points to suit your argument. You have $200k in cash sitting around right now? Didn’t think so. Don’t count magic income in your equation you don’t have. If you bought a house now, you’d not only get the typical benefits of appreciation, and tax savings, you’d get your $8k freebie from the big O. If you are saying you are some how going to lose tens of thousands of dollars in additional sunk costs like energy bills then you are just comparing apples and oranges. “OMG, its going to cost more to heat my 3,000 sqft house than my 500 sqft apartment.” I mean, that doesn’t sound totally retarded to you? You know what, do it this way. You’re throwing away that $45k because you could be living in your moms basement rent free :banghead: ---
**Author:** ![Blue\_Eyed\_Devil](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/blue_eyed_devil/32/7292_2.png) [@Blue\_Eyed\_Devil](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Blue_Eyed_Devil)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 11:48am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/cap-and-trade-thread/69738/93 "2009-06-30T11:48:04Z")
Yeah, there is quality of life as well. I feel like I am on vacation at my new house.🙂 ---
**Author:** ![walter](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/walter/32/7202_2.png) [@walter](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/walter)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 12:02pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/cap-and-trade-thread/69738/94 "2009-06-30T12:02:34Z")
And generally you only “lose” your ass on a house if you end up selling it quickly. ---
**Author:** ![traumadog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8baadc/32.png) [@traumadog](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/traumadog)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 1:12pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/cap-and-trade-thread/69738/95 "2009-06-30T13:12:30Z")
> [@Joe](#): > > First of all, there are tariffs included in the bill to level the playing field, based on global warming legislation in other countries or lack thereof. If they don’t have any, like China, then you’re going to have to pay more to import their shit since they have that advantage. > [Possible Plan for Tariffs on Imports From China Remains Alive in House Climate Bill - NYTimes.com](http://www.nytimes.com/cwire/2009/06/24/24climatewire-possible-plan-for-tariffs-on-imports-from-ch-25103.html) > It’s going to make jobs in fields like the one Janus said. Companies aren’t just going to nut up, pollute as much as they do now, and pay the tax. They’re going to be spending a ton of money on R&D to try to find ways to pollute less and get around it. Companies that find ways to do so will have explosive growth. = jobs. Except that in the article already are the seeds of its failure. China can file a WTO complaint that declares this “carbon tariff” anti-competetive/protectionist (which it honestly is), and get it thrown out. And alternative energies will for much of the forseeable future, be more expensive per MW than carbon-based ones; therefore China WILL win out until no manufacturing capacity exists in the US. What would have been more even-handed (and more direct to regulate) than cap-and-trade is a straightforward carbon-based VAT that applies to ALL goods, not just those made in the USA. ---
**Author:** ![Penfold](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/penfold/32/5007_2.png) [@Penfold](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Penfold)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 4:16pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/cap-and-trade-thread/69738/96 "2009-06-30T16:16:58Z")
I cant wait to see the :picard: 's when all our manufacturing is overseas and we go to war with a nation like china in 15 years. [Previous page](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/cap-and-trade-thread/69738.md?page=4)