# Carbon...Mmmmmmm **URL:** \ **Category:** Shift518 Automotive\ **Created:** [April 21, 2011, 11:45pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/carbon-mmmmmmm/258027 "2011-04-21T23:45:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Boxersix](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/boxersix/32/6327_2.png) [@Boxersix](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Boxersix)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 10:11pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/carbon-mmmmmmm/258027/21 "2011-04-22T22:11:26Z")
Just about to go to bed and checking in here for this stuff šŸ™‚ > [@you all may be wondering...](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/you-all-may-be-wondering/41516/15): > > what are you using tooling gel for? A mold release? > > edit you calling what i call gelcoat (like the paint on shit) tooling gel? LOL i think i am on the same page then if thats the case Tooling gel is the topcoat for production molds to produce an ultra hard high gloss finish on the mold for multiple pulls. To apply properly requires special TG spray equipment. It physically can be brushed on in small applications, but resulting qualities suffer. It is not a mold release. It is also not a requirement for a mold when making one or two parts, but something I used every time for consistency. > [@Your Best interest - Threads you shouldn't Start](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/your-best-interest-threads-you-shouldnt-start/41530/12): > > Adam, think this is something you could do for t-tops as well? > > AS much as I love my ttops at times, for the most part I hate them and I and many other Z31 guys have been looking at possible Carbon fiber replacements/plugs if you will > > Obviously a CF replacement would require much more work as It would need to be ā€œfunctionalā€ and lock into place and be able to be taken off Yes I can produce these parts but one has to understand that the molds themselves of this complexity can top into the thousands of dollars(labor and material) to be rigid enough to pull multiple high quality parts from. Youā€™ll have multiple-piece molds to incorporate the appropriate fasteners/latches, structural integrity, and ridgelines for factory seal capability. As a result itā€™s often not beneficial for one person to bear the brunt of the mold process and why multiple orders(IE group buys as most refer it) are required to cover the initial cost of the mold production with such parts. In short I refuse to cut corners and do things half-assed, but the cost reflects. Iā€™d really have to look at the car in depth to really have a graps on the actual part at hand and be able to discuss this with more certainty. > [@NYSpeed is growing up v. Home Purchase](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/nyspeed-is-growing-up-v-home-purchase/41531/16): > > notice you said infusion. You lay the CF dry, then suck the epoxy in one side until it wets out to the other right? I understand thatā€™s the best way as to not over saturate the piece, but does it take a lot more vac to suck it through? I wondered if my lil rig could do small stuff like that. Also what do you do to mix the resin? do the math and get an est on square footage and mix xx amount for that, as not to waste epoxy? Yes resin infusion in general is that, but itā€™s a bit more complicated than wet layup. Small parts can be infused from one end of the mold but most require a spider feed. Resin must be fed from a pressure pot, and really must be degassed to eliminate bubbles. I have a large degassing chamber to achieve this. The benefit of infusion is repeatability, and from a production standpoint that equals money saved. For small parts and home scale stuff, wet layup is more than capable of producing quality parts. I have no idea what you rig can handle. I have a few various 220volt 3/4-2hp twin and four cylinder vacuum pumps that i use depending on CFM required. Just because you pump can pull ~18+ inches of mercury doesnā€™t mean itā€™ll have the required CFM flow to pull the resin properly before gel time sets in. Most stuff youā€™d likely do I doubt youā€™d have too much of an issue with. Remember that too much vacuum can be bad as well where you achieve compaction and then proceed to remove too much resin from the laminate, resulting in a structurally feeble part. Resin infusion does not mean youā€™ll have proper resin/composite ratio. That is a balance of knowing what type of resin to use with the laminate youā€™re working with amongst other things. Fabric weaves and weights layers of the laminate youā€™re infusing, temperature, resin viscosity, type of surfacing in the mold, etc, etc all dictate the what/when/where figures. What it really boils down to is experience with the laminates youā€™re working with. Iā€™ve been doing this for quite a long time and have spent thousands upon thousands of dollars in wasted materials learning what I know now, and it certainly isnā€™t getting any cheaper. Pre peg is the only way to absolutely guarantee proper R/L ratio but is by far my most expensive application of my composite work due to material cost(in excess of ~$100 yard for some fabrics) and cost to operate the autoclave. I reserve this process for high strength structural parts like the suspension arms and larger components like the carbon cells for the small kit cars I have planned because you simply cannot get proper compaction of the laminate by vacuum pressure to get the strength requiredā€¦ Resin is mixed according to manufacturer specs, but most MEKPā€™s are @ about 1.5% while most epoxies are around a 2:1 ratio(by weight). Again each mixed needs to be tailored to the specific composite youā€™re working on and the conditions itā€™s in(temps, etc). How much resin to mix is, yet again, just based on experience. Certain fabrics wet out very easy and donā€™t require a ton of resin to get saturation, while others like some of the insanely heavy 40oz E glass or kyntex biaxial required enormous amounts of resin for saturation. Did I miss any questions there? Iā€™m off to bed now. ---
**Author:** ![KrazyKid](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/krazykid/32/6371_2.png) [@KrazyKid](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/KrazyKid)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2011, 7:42am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/carbon-mmmmmmm/258027/22 "2011-04-25T07:42:29Z")
good read! Thanks for the tips. Its all starting to make sense in my head! ---
**Author:** ![Shady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6de8d8/32.png) [@Shady](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Shady)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2011, 7:56am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/carbon-mmmmmmm/258027/23 "2011-04-25T07:56:18Z")
Adam, sometime in the future Iā€™ll pull off one of my t-tops and bring it to you to check outā€¦ Depending on the cost etc and what it would be with a group by, I may be able to get a good ammount of orders, a lot of people have talked about doing something like this for a long time, problem is finding somplace to do itā€¦ Might be some potential to make a little money off of it, weā€™ll see I guess :lol ---
**Author:** ![ninety1two40](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/ninety1two40/32/6332_2.png) [@ninety1two40](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/ninety1two40)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2011, 7:58am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/carbon-mmmmmmm/258027/24 "2011-04-25T07:58:22Z")
In before Adam quotes $5k price tag :rofl ---
**Author:** ![ReDevil](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/redevil/32/6385_2.png) [@ReDevil](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/ReDevil)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2011, 8:02am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/carbon-mmmmmmm/258027/25 "2011-04-25T08:02:51Z")
I would consider a set in the near future actually. The stock glass ones can be a pain to move around sometimes. ---
**Author:** ![Shady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6de8d8/32.png) [@Shady](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Shady)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2011, 10:14am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/carbon-mmmmmmm/258027/26 "2011-04-25T10:14:39Z")
> [@ugh soo hott](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/ugh-soo-hott/41609/5): > > In before Adam quotes $5k price tag :rofl šŸ¤£rofl Iā€™d exspect it to be in the thousands, if thats the case rright now I would not do it myself but if I can get 15+ people on board from Z31 community, itā€™d probably be worth it ---
**Author:** ![Wayne64SS](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/wayne64ss/32/6365_2.png) [@Wayne64SS](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Wayne64SS)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 7:45am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/carbon-mmmmmmm/258027/27 "2011-04-26T07:45:49Z")
> [@Miller welder guys](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/miller-welder-guys/41522/2): > > My safety equipment is worth more than most of the parts in your car son šŸ˜‰ , so iā€™ll blame it on lack of sleep. > > Laminated MDF thatā€™s shaped. Canā€™t use this carsā€™ OEM glass to mold off of because itā€™s substantially smaller than the opening with the remainder taken up by a very large rubber gasket(which you can not mold off of). This is not a glass panel replacement, itā€™s a complete plug that replaces the entire sunroof mechanism. > > Typically Iā€™d CNC these molds but this one was too large for my smaller machine and my larger machine isnā€™t up and running yet. I use either MDF for one-off stuff like this, or for ultra detail production molds and plugs Iā€™ll use carbon foam(expensive). Making a negative mold by hand with double contours(left to right and front to back) is near impossible to do accurately on this type of part, so you must first make a positive plug to pull a negative mold from. > > Mold is sanded to shape and sealed with polyester resin, sanded/buffed/polished to a mirror finish thereafter to pull the mold from. > > And youā€™re steps for making a mold off a plug are all azz-backwards. Over a plug it goes tooling gel, chopped glass, woven roving, reinforcements(ribs) THEN demold. Never vacuum bag a mold with TG surface, youā€™ll get massive print though which will transpose to your parts. It takes days to weeks to make a mold. Took 10-12 days to make this one(and repair the TG when the PVA failed) > > **Thanks folks. FWIW, thereā€™s really nothing in automotive composite I canā€™t do, aside from crap like wheels and high tech compressed graphite engine shit. Panels, hoods, aero, full bodies, etc. Carbon pushrods and suspension arms(DSR/CSR stuff only), seats, list goes on. If you have the $$ to pay I have the capabilities šŸ™‚** JOB SHADOW. You need one. ---
**Author:** ![Boxersix](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/boxersix/32/6327_2.png) [@Boxersix](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Boxersix)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 3:55pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/carbon-mmmmmmm/258027/28 "2011-04-27T15:55:03Z")
What I need is to hire some employees that have a dedicated work ethic and are not a basket case. Iā€™ve yet to find someone I can trust to walk away from and know they can handle themselves. Last job shadow I had going resulted in some ā€œmysteriousā€ scratches down the side of a C4s that I ended up paying out of pocket to have repaired. Not again. ---
**Author:** ![AMD\_IS\_THE\_BEST](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/amd_is_the_best/32/6342_2.png) [@AMD\_IS\_THE\_BEST](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/AMD_IS_THE_BEST)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 4:05pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/carbon-mmmmmmm/258027/29 "2011-04-27T16:05:02Z")
Pic installed? Awesome work man! ---
**Author:** ![Boxersix](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/boxersix/32/6327_2.png) [@Boxersix](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Boxersix)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 4:08pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/carbon-mmmmmmm/258027/30 "2011-04-27T16:08:12Z")
I had to put another layer of seam sealant on the car yesterday and have it dry while Iā€™m gone. Iā€™ll trim it up clean when I get back and take a pic or two of it then, unless Eric sees this and takes/posts a few here himself. The car is back at his place now. ---
**Author:** ![JVG](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/jvg/32/6348_2.png) [@JVG](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/JVG)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 5:12pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/carbon-mmmmmmm/258027/31 "2011-04-27T17:12:50Z")
> [@Boxersix"](#): > > What I need is to hire some employees that have a dedicated work ethic and are not a basket case. Iā€™ve yet to find someone I can trust to walk away from and know they can handle themselves. > > Last job shadow I had going resulted in some ā€œmysteriousā€ scratches down the side of a C4s that I ended up paying out of pocket to have repaired. Not again. I havenā€™t broke shit ---
**Author:** ![Boxersix](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/boxersix/32/6327_2.png) [@Boxersix](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Boxersix)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 6:12pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/carbon-mmmmmmm/258027/32 "2011-04-27T18:12:24Z")
Second sentence JVG, second sentence. :lol ---
**Author:** ![ninety1two40](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/ninety1two40/32/6332_2.png) [@ninety1two40](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/ninety1two40)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 5:23am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/carbon-mmmmmmm/258027/33 "2011-04-28T05:23:36Z")
If I didnt have a good job, Iā€™d work for you lol ---
**Author:** ![Wayne64SS](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/wayne64ss/32/6365_2.png) [@Wayne64SS](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Wayne64SS)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 5:50am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/carbon-mmmmmmm/258027/34 "2011-04-28T05:50:29Z")
> [@Boxersix"](#): > > What I need is to hire some employees that have a dedicated work ethic and are not a basket case. Iā€™ve yet to find someone I can trust to walk away from and know they can handle themselves. > > Last job shadow I had going resulted in some ā€œmysteriousā€ scratches down the side of a C4s that I ended up paying out of pocket to have repaired. Not again. I totally understand where youā€™re coming from here. Good help is hard to find. I donā€™t know anyone Iā€™d trust to work on something for me out in the shop and let it go out the door with my name on it. ā˜¹ ---
**Author:** ![Shady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6de8d8/32.png) [@Shady](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Shady)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 6:53am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/carbon-mmmmmmm/258027/35 "2011-04-28T06:53:23Z")
shit if I didenā€™t have a family etc and could work for pennies/free as a shadow/apprentice I would in a heartbeat adamā€¦ I love to learn, and it seems if you wanna make any sort of money these days in the automotive world you really need to get yourself in something liek your doing, having a select customer base and big projects, problem is it takes a lot of money/time to get it rolling ---
**Author:** ![bennyfizzle](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/bennyfizzle/32/6291_2.png) [@bennyfizzle](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/bennyfizzle)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 6:55am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/carbon-mmmmmmm/258027/36 "2011-04-28T06:55:01Z")
Yeah you should definitely hire an intern WHOS FUCKING DIFF FELL OUT OF HIS CAR. ---
**Author:** ![Wayne64SS](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/wayne64ss/32/6365_2.png) [@Wayne64SS](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Wayne64SS)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 7:09am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/carbon-mmmmmmm/258027/37 "2011-04-28T07:09:27Z")
> [@Nonidentical twins parted at birth end up married.](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/nonidentical-twins-parted-at-birth-end-up-married/41717/4): > > Yeah you should definitely hire an intern WHOS FUCKING DIFF FELL OUT OF HIS CAR. OMG LARGE REP!!! šŸ¤£rofl ---
**Author:** ![LKSi](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/lksi/32/6316_2.png) [@LKSi](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/LKSi)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 7:10am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/carbon-mmmmmmm/258027/38 "2011-04-28T07:10:15Z")
wowwwā€¦ dying right now ---
**Author:** ![Shady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6de8d8/32.png) [@Shady](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Shady)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 7:24am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/carbon-mmmmmmm/258027/39 "2011-04-28T07:24:27Z")
> [@Nonidentical twins parted at birth end up married.](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/nonidentical-twins-parted-at-birth-end-up-married/41717/4): > > Yeah you should definitely hire an intern WHOS FUCKING DIFF FELL OUT OF HIS CAR. šŸ¤£rofl:rofl:rofl But yeah, totally my fault that a part that I did not make failed :facepalm ---
**Author:** ![ninety1two40](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/ninety1two40/32/6332_2.png) [@ninety1two40](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/ninety1two40)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 7:26am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/carbon-mmmmmmm/258027/40 "2011-04-28T07:26:13Z")
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