# Ford Dealer Fights Back **URL:** \ **Category:** NYSpeed Automotive\ **Created:** [December 16, 2008, 8:40am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/ford-dealer-fights-back/59819 "2008-12-16T08:40:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![system](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/uploads/speedlife/original/2X/b/b7170c8eddc0b95ece6b88172b2f416a08489a45.png) [@system](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/system)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 10:36am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/ford-dealer-fights-back/59819/21 "2008-12-16T10:36:33Z")
**[http://www.npr.org/news/specials/gmvstoyota/](http://www.npr.org/news/specials/gmvstoyota/)** **Profitability per Vehicle** ``` Source: 2005 Harbour Report GM: Loses $2,331 per vehicle Toyota: Makes $1,488 per vehicle ``` The end. ---
**Author:** ![SideWinderGX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/fbc32d/32.png) [@SideWinderGX](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/SideWinderGX)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 10:37am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/ford-dealer-fights-back/59819/22 "2008-12-16T10:37:31Z")
UAW needs to DIAF. ---
**Author:** ![Paulo](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/paulo/32/7328_2.png) [@Paulo](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Paulo)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 10:46am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/ford-dealer-fights-back/59819/23 "2008-12-16T10:46:48Z")
> [@mafdark](#): > > **[http://www.npr.org/news/specials/gmvstoyota/](http://www.npr.org/news/specials/gmvstoyota/)** > > **Profitability per Vehicle** > > ``` > Source: 2005 Harbour Report > > GM: > > Loses $2,331 per vehicle > > Toyota: > > Makes $1,488 per vehicle > > ``` Hence my remark about boiling down to operation costs… ---
**Author:** ![Fry](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/fry/32/7284_2.png) [@Fry](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Fry)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 10:54am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/ford-dealer-fights-back/59819/24 "2008-12-16T10:54:28Z")
Yep. Their cars are fine, good even. Same with their sales. Less cost. More profit. If a bailout will help them achieve that then great. If they need Chapter 11 to be able to trim the fat, then great. I’m not convinced which one is better. ---
**Author:** ![Paulo](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/paulo/32/7328_2.png) [@Paulo](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Paulo)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 11:04am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/ford-dealer-fights-back/59819/25 "2008-12-16T11:04:50Z")
> [@Fry](#): > > Yep. Their cars are fine, good even. Same with their sales. Less cost. More profit. If a bailout will help them achieve that then great. If they need Chapter 11 to be able to trim the fat, then great. I’m not convinced which one is better. That’s where I just can’t find solid ground. I really don’t know that they can become profitable by changing their operations if they get this bailout. If they have taken this long to make changes and haven’t succeeded, what’s to say that they will before this bailout money runs out, and they are still a sinking ship? And obviously, the UAW has a huge part in this. ---
**Author:** ![Fry](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/fry/32/7284_2.png) [@Fry](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Fry)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 11:19am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/ford-dealer-fights-back/59819/26 "2008-12-16T11:19:40Z")
Well there have been some changes. GM took like a 40 billion loss last year IIRC to off the legacy healthcare of retirees onto the union. So they’re probably just arguing that they need more time for changes to work. Maybe they do maybe they don’t. :shrug: And yeah, the UAW is definitely the bad guy in this story. I’m not convinced that they’re the greedy assholes killing the industry that the media makes them out to be. Maybe they are, but I’m not totally convinced. ---
**Author:** ![Joe](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/joe/32/7219_2.png) [@Joe](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Joe)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 11:23am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/ford-dealer-fights-back/59819/27 "2008-12-16T11:23:56Z")
There is so much anti-union spin being put out there by Southern Republicans right now it’s ridiculous. Particularly those who subsidize foreign non-union plants in their states. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Stevil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/da6949/32.png) [@Dr.Stevil](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Dr.Stevil)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 11:37am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/ford-dealer-fights-back/59819/28 "2008-12-16T11:37:15Z")
> [@Joe](#): > > There is so much anti-union spin being put out there by Southern Republicans right now it’s ridiculous. Particularly those who subsidize foreign non-union plants in their states. imagine that, anti-union politicians supporting non-union shops? ---
**Author:** ![Joe](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/joe/32/7219_2.png) [@Joe](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Joe)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 11:38am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/ford-dealer-fights-back/59819/29 "2008-12-16T11:38:27Z")
Imagine that, Southern Republicans smearing their political opponents with lies. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Stevil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/da6949/32.png) [@Dr.Stevil](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Dr.Stevil)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 11:39am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/ford-dealer-fights-back/59819/30 "2008-12-16T11:39:22Z")
:lol: :lol: biased people are funny edit: back on topic, the UAW needs to go… period. ---
**Author:** ![Joe](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/joe/32/7219_2.png) [@Joe](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Joe)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 11:41am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/ford-dealer-fights-back/59819/31 "2008-12-16T11:41:39Z")
Disagreed. Even if a UAW plant had identical pay/benefits/etc. to a non-union shop, the haters would still blame them for issues and say they had to go. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Stevil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/da6949/32.png) [@Dr.Stevil](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Dr.Stevil)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 11:50am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/ford-dealer-fights-back/59819/32 "2008-12-16T11:50:28Z")
well, you can only cry wolf so many times. I think a majority of the population (haters) stopped feeling sorry for them a while ago… so why keep them? I’m not for leaving folks high and dry. Let them run out their contracts, get rid of the job bank TODAY, offer buyouts and ride it out. All new employees = non-union staff. ---
**Author:** ![Paulo](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/paulo/32/7328_2.png) [@Paulo](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Paulo)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 12:07pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/ford-dealer-fights-back/59819/33 "2008-12-16T12:07:10Z")
> [@Joe](#): > > Disagreed. Even if a UAW plant had identical pay/benefits/etc. to a non-union shop, the haters would still blame them for issues and say they had to go. Yup. Toyota pays their employees just as much, if not more than GM. And they do not have a Union. ---
**Author:** ![Wahoo](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/wahoo/32/8265_2.png) [@Wahoo](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Wahoo)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 12:08pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/ford-dealer-fights-back/59819/34 "2008-12-16T12:08:58Z")
> [@Paulo](#): > > Yup. Toyota pays their employees just as much, if not more than GM. And they do not have a Union. But there are more retired Gm employee’s so it costs GM more either way. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Stevil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/da6949/32.png) [@Dr.Stevil](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Dr.Stevil)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 12:10pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/ford-dealer-fights-back/59819/35 "2008-12-16T12:10:03Z")
> [@Paulo](#): > > Yup. Toyota pays their employees just as much, if not more than GM. And they do not have a Union. AFAIK, they also don’t pay their employees 90% of their pay to sit on their asses while the company doesn’t need them. also, last I read, the average toyota employee made around 5.00 less an hour than UAW average… who knows what that is now. I wonder how the benefits stack up side by side too (heath insurnace, 401K/retirement, vacation times, lawyer perks, ect) ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Stevil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/da6949/32.png) [@Dr.Stevil](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Dr.Stevil)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 12:13pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/ford-dealer-fights-back/59819/36 "2008-12-16T12:13:22Z")
[http://www.manufacturing.net/News-GM-Vs-Toyota-Wages-And-Benefits.aspx](http://www.manufacturing.net/News-GM-Vs-Toyota-Wages-And-Benefits.aspx) not very specific, but pretty much sums things up ---
**Author:** ![Paulo](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/paulo/32/7328_2.png) [@Paulo](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Paulo)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 12:14pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/ford-dealer-fights-back/59819/37 "2008-12-16T12:14:48Z")
> [@Dr.Stevil](#): > > AFAIK, they also don’t pay their employees 90% of their pay to sit on their asses while the company doesn’t need them. > > also, last I read, the average toyota employee made around 5.00 less an hour than UAW average… who knows what that is now. I wonder how the benefits stack up side by side too (heath insurnace, 401K/retirement, vacation times, lawyer perks, ect) Right. That is why it all comes back to operation costs, like I originally stated. The way operations are set up in a Toyota plant, the option to fuck around and do nothing simply isn’t there. I know this first hand. As far as benefits: My dad, who used to work for GM and is now working for Toyota has the same benefits as before. Whenever the UAW (or CAW in Canada) tries to get the workers to join, Toyota matches anything that they are fighting for anyway. This is why they have been able to keep them out. No one votes for them. The retirement part is probably a significant factor, though. I didn’t think of that. EDIT - and the link you posted pretty much confirms that… ---
**Author:** ![Joe](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/joe/32/7219_2.png) [@Joe](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Joe)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 12:18pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/ford-dealer-fights-back/59819/38 "2008-12-16T12:18:40Z")
Toyota is going to go through the same shit as they get more mature in this country. Watch and see. Union or no union. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Stevil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/da6949/32.png) [@Dr.Stevil](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Dr.Stevil)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 12:19pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/ford-dealer-fights-back/59819/39 "2008-12-16T12:19:43Z")
> [@Paulo](#): > > Right. That is why it all comes back to operation costs, like I originally stated. The way operations are set up in a Toyota plant, the option to fuck around and do nothing simply isn’t there. I know this first hand. yup… if you do that in a union shop, file a grievance with the UAW and you’re set… do that in a non-union enviroment, your ass is out the door. Having known a lot of people that have worked at GM and Ford, it’s really amazing to hear stories on how fucked that system really is… I’m sure your old man has a few, having worked for GM ---
**Author:** ![Paulo](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/paulo/32/7328_2.png) [@Paulo](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Paulo)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 12:21pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/ford-dealer-fights-back/59819/40 "2008-12-16T12:21:52Z")
> [@Dr.Stevil](#): > > yup… if you do that in a union shop, file a grievance with the UAW and you’re set… do that in a non-union enviroment, your ass is out the door. Having known a lot of people that have worked at GM and Ford, it’s really amazing to hear stories on how fucked that system really is… I’m sure your old man has a few, having worked for GM It’s incredible. What is really amazing is to hear and see the COMPLETE OPPOSITE at Toyota. Where people get fired for being pieces of shit and escorted out by police. (not kidding) [Previous page](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/ford-dealer-fights-back/59819.md?page=1) [Next page](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/ford-dealer-fights-back/59819.md?page=3)