# Ford + GM + Dodge VS Everybody bailout. **URL:** \ **Category:** Shift518 Automotive\ **Created:** [November 17, 2008, 10:40am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/ford-gm-dodge-vs-everybody-bailout/240240 "2008-11-17T10:40:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Ilya](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/ilya/32/6404_2.png) [@Ilya](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Ilya)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2008, 2:39pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/ford-gm-dodge-vs-everybody-bailout/240240/41 "2008-11-18T14:39:45Z")
The American companies should have done things the right way from the beginning. The world automakers passed them a LONG time ago in quality and only recently have the American companies tried to step their game up in that regard. Too little, too late. Put a fork in em. Those companies should combine and just build trucks/heavy duty machinery. Their SUV’s, Auto’s, and even Van’s are utter crap. I’d take a Honda Odyssey or a Toyota Siena over any American van on the market. I’d take an QX SUV over any American SUV, and Auto’s…well…no need to say anything here. ---
**Author:** ![Vovchandr](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/vovchandr/32/6275_2.png) [@Vovchandr](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Vovchandr)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2008, 2:40pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/ford-gm-dodge-vs-everybody-bailout/240240/42 "2008-11-18T14:40:35Z")
For the record “Chapter 11 bankruptcy” and complete loss of business are completely different things. Here some food for thought If Airlines started asking for huge bailouts right now, would you support them? They are doing miserable and are always filing bankruptcy without anybody really caring, and they have a very similar if not a bigger effect on the economy as the auto industry. If they don’t get bailed out, automakers will be forced to put their noses down and actually restructure their business to be profitable again. And don’t get it confused, bailout won’t revive them, it will merely let them survive longer. The models that are unpopular now are still planned in production for the next ~4 years, which still won’t be selling, especially now that consumers have little to no trust into the companies. Ponder on that. :ponder ---
**Author:** ![Alpine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@Alpine](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Alpine)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2008, 2:51pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/ford-gm-dodge-vs-everybody-bailout/240240/43 "2008-11-18T14:51:10Z")
> [@Vovchandr](#): > > For the record “Chapter 11 bankruptcy” and complete loss of business are completely different things. > > Here some food for thought > > If Airlines started asking for huge bailouts right now, would you support them? They are doing miserable and are always filing bankruptcy without anybody really caring, and they have a very similar if not a bigger effect on the economy as the auto industry. > > **If they don’t get bailed out, automakers will be forced to put their noses down and actually restructure their business to be profitable again.** > > And don’t get it confused, bailout won’t revive them, it will merely let them survive longer. > > The models that are unpopular now are still planned in production for the next ~4 years, which still won’t be selling, especially now that consumers have little to no trust into the companies. > > Ponder on that. :ponder I agree with you there 100%. I say NO to this. ---
**Author:** ![Ilya](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/ilya/32/6404_2.png) [@Ilya](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Ilya)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2008, 3:10pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/ford-gm-dodge-vs-everybody-bailout/240240/44 "2008-11-18T15:10:23Z")
Me too. +1. ---
**Author:** ![plaf713](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/439d5e/32.png) [@plaf713](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/plaf713)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2008, 4:12pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/ford-gm-dodge-vs-everybody-bailout/240240/45 "2008-11-18T16:12:09Z")
> [@Pants Party](#): > > You’re kidding me right? 100,000 job losses is just a fraction of the losses that will occue in the event that these corporations will fail. I was just talking about the people employed at one corporation in just the dealerships alone. Not that they will all lose their jobs but hundreds of thousands will be affected. And I guess it’s easy to argue that they don’t deserve it when you aren’t one of the people being affected right? > > You might be right they can mostly find jobs worst case scenerio but think about this. You’ve got men and women who have been working for a company for 15 years+, with pensions and benefits. You think they get to keep those pensions in the event of a total loss? No. > > They are also used to making X amount of money per year. They have houses, cars, etc. You say they can find a job anywhere but they wont find one at the same income, very few of them will find a job that has the same pay and benefits. Expecially if they just go down to the local fast food joint as you so claim they can do. They will lose their house, cars, retirement and guess what? That just adds to our problems as an economy, not to mention the hardworking people at these corps. not everything in life is guarunteed, so why would those people think that there jobs are set for life, you cant take into consideration that you’ll have your job forever, if you do you get screwed in the end, the economy will go on without the big three, and there will be others in its place ---
**Author:** ![Jammer](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/jammer/32/6349_2.png) [@Jammer](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Jammer)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2008, 8:34pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/ford-gm-dodge-vs-everybody-bailout/240240/46 "2008-11-18T20:34:03Z")
Stop making it sound like people don’t want GM products… 9 million did in 2007. As many as Toyota. Just noting a point due to the manor of Vlad’s comments (Hello Sir) Truth be told, thats a Shawn style statistic… many of those a GM owned companies like Opel, that are not produced here and thus somewhat irrellivent to this discussion- but does speak to mismanagement to an extent) The most purchased vehicle in the USA is a ford, and the 2nd is a Chevy. Ponder that. Her are Truck Numbers: Ford F-Series: 790,589 Chevy Silverado: 618,257 Dodge Ram: 358,295 GMC Sierra: 208,243 Toyota Tundra: 196,555 Nissan Titan: 65,746 The sad part is GM sold as much as Toyota Worldwise (over 9 MILLION vehicles in 2007) and is still going under. [http://jalopnik.com/347930/gm-global-sales-up-30-to-937-million-vehicles-possibly-tied-with-toyota](http://jalopnik.com/347930/gm-global-sales-up-30-to-937-million-vehicles-possibly-tied-with-toyota) I am not discussing quality over the past 15 years in general. Just pointing out a fact some may not be aware of. Also of intere4sting note the that Ambercrombie and Finch have a total of 7,000 MORE employees than Ford at the moment. Business Plan , they need to sell their plan to a non-bias /non-Union bought off group of politicans. Impossible. so were all gonna pay. Time to March on Washington is coming, in the Obama Era. ---
**Author:** ![JClark](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/jclark/32/6309_2.png) [@JClark](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/JClark)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 5:29am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/ford-gm-dodge-vs-everybody-bailout/240240/47 "2008-11-19T05:29:33Z")
They made those sales numbers by selling their cars for cheaper than what could sustain the corporation. Americans didnt PREFER the car, they bought it because the deal was too good to pass up. Or because it was an H2 with chrome package. That’s like saying I make a TV that costs me $1000 but I sell it for $800. It’s not as good as the competition, but they can get it for 40% less. People buy it. Great sales numbers! But I ran myself bankrupt doing it. BTW, my loaner car is a new Accord and this thing sucks. That is all. ---
**Author:** ![99FRC](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/99frc/32/6335_2.png) [@99FRC](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/99FRC)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 6:13am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/ford-gm-dodge-vs-everybody-bailout/240240/48 "2008-11-19T06:13:16Z")
I think one of the major reasons they are going under is because they have WAY to many dealerships. GM alone has over 7,000 in the US and Toyota for example only has 4,000. If GM were to cut the total number of dealerships they had to maintain they would save a lot of money… ---
**Author:** ![Ilya](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/ilya/32/6404_2.png) [@Ilya](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Ilya)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 6:16am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/ford-gm-dodge-vs-everybody-bailout/240240/49 "2008-11-19T06:16:09Z")
> [@JClark](#): > > They made those sales numbers by selling their cars for cheaper than what could sustain the corporation. Americans didnt PREFER the car, they bought it because the deal was too good to pass up. Or because it was an H2 with chrome package. > > That’s like saying I make a TV that costs me $1000 but I sell it for $800. It’s not as good as the competition, but they can get it for 40% less. People buy it. Great sales numbers! But I ran myself bankrupt doing it. > > BTW, my loaner car is a new Accord and this thing sucks. That is all. Plus…GM would have made a lot more if people wanted their CARS as much as they do their trucks. I won’t deny it…Americans know how to build trucks. My dads got a 92 Chevy with like 280k on it. He changed the original clutch at 220k. That’s quality. Cars? Not so much. As J said…American cars are loads cheaper than imports…obviously because of import taxes and stuff but also because they tried getting the people in the dealerships by offering crazy incentives, deals, etc. This came back to bite them in the ass over the last 10 or so years. Like I said before…the big three should have put forth the effort 20 years ago…not now. They kicked themselves in the balls by offering shit for 20 years and when people form an opinion about a product, it usually does not change. ---
**Author:** ![Shawn96VR-4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eada6e/32.png) [@Shawn96VR-4](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Shawn96VR-4)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 6:17am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/ford-gm-dodge-vs-everybody-bailout/240240/50 "2008-11-19T06:17:53Z")
Let them rot. ---
**Author:** ![plaf713](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/439d5e/32.png) [@plaf713](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/plaf713)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 6:47am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/ford-gm-dodge-vs-everybody-bailout/240240/51 "2008-11-19T06:47:45Z")
> [@Pants Party](#): > > I think one of the major reasons they are going under is because they have WAY to many dealerships. GM alone has over 7,000 in the US and Toyota for example only has 4,000. If GM were to cut the total number of dealerships they had to maintain they would save a lot of money… yes i agree with that, they simple have tooo much business going on. They were producing to many cars, and thats there own fault. And im not making it seem like people don’t want GM, i think in our current economy people want GM when the price is right ---
**Author:** ![Vovchandr](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/vovchandr/32/6275_2.png) [@Vovchandr](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Vovchandr)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 7:30am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/ford-gm-dodge-vs-everybody-bailout/240240/52 "2008-11-19T07:30:08Z")
> [@Jammer](#): > > Stop making it sound like people don’t want GM products… 9 million did in 2007. As many as Toyota. Just noting a point due to the manor of Vlad’s comments (Hello Sir) Truth be told, thats a Shawn style statistic… many of those a GM owned companies like Opel, that are not produced here and thus somewhat irrellivent to this discussion- but does speak to mismanagement to an extent) Somebody had to make rental cars. ---
**Author:** ![Shawn96VR-4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eada6e/32.png) [@Shawn96VR-4](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Shawn96VR-4)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 8:10am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/ford-gm-dodge-vs-everybody-bailout/240240/53 "2008-11-19T08:10:59Z")
[http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/11/18/campbell.brown.big.three/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/11/18/campbell.brown.big.three/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![Jammer](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/jammer/32/6349_2.png) [@Jammer](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Jammer)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 8:18am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/ford-gm-dodge-vs-everybody-bailout/240240/54 "2008-11-19T08:18:18Z")
> [@JClark](#): > > They made those sales numbers by selling their cars for cheaper than what could sustain the corporation. Americans didnt PREFER the car, they bought it because the deal was too good to pass up. Or because it was an H2 with chrome package. > > That’s like saying I make a TV that costs me $1000 but I sell it for $800. It’s not as good as the competition, but they can get it for 40% less. People buy it. Great sales numbers! But I ran myself bankrupt doing it. > > BTW, my loaner car is a new Accord and this thing sucks. That is all. LOL, loaner…why, your other import break and in shop? I know, that’s my point, to an extent. GM needs to be broken completely and rebuilt the old way…with earnings in mind… thus quality and design become imperative. ---
**Author:** ![Shawn96VR-4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eada6e/32.png) [@Shawn96VR-4](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Shawn96VR-4)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 8:24am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/ford-gm-dodge-vs-everybody-bailout/240240/55 "2008-11-19T08:24:38Z")
> [@Jammer](#): > > I know, that’s my point, to an extent. GM needs to be broken completely and rebuilt the old way…with earnings in mind… thus quality and design become imperative. Is that even possible? Not GM but a company of that magnitude. To me, it seems like everyone knew they were falling behind yet didn’t make the major changes necessary to re-organize. I always felt they continued to do business as usual. ---
**Author:** ![JClark](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/jclark/32/6309_2.png) [@JClark](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/JClark)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 8:55am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/ford-gm-dodge-vs-everybody-bailout/240240/56 "2008-11-19T08:55:45Z")
> [@Jammer](#): > > LOL, loaner…why, your other import break and in shop? > I know, that’s my point, to an extent. GM needs to be broken completely and rebuilt the old way…with earnings in mind… thus quality and design become imperative. +1 My free maintenance plan (BMW FTW) ends this month so they are having a field day with it on BMW’s dollar. ---
**Author:** ![Jammer](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/jammer/32/6349_2.png) [@Jammer](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Jammer)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 9:03am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/ford-gm-dodge-vs-everybody-bailout/240240/57 "2008-11-19T09:03:18Z")
> [@Shawn96VR-4](#): > > Is that even possible? Not GM but a company of that magnitude. To me, it seems like everyone knew they were falling behind yet didn’t make the major changes necessary to re-organize. I always felt they continued to do business as usual. No idea if its possible, and the politics of it wont let it happen. Unions will feign bending, and will not bend far enough. Facts are this thread is full of opinions, and some gacts here and there. Some people here think that GM is CHEAPly Priced, Shawns referenced article suggests that people get sticker shock with American cars. I think reality is in the middle. You cant compare an Impala to a BMW s… but you can compare a Cadi, but the Cadi costs more when outfitted similarly. American cars are not cheap pricewise when compared to the Hyundi/Kia/ etc. Honda and Toyota have earned a premium in the daily commuter and mini-van world, but theres also a difference in the feel of an American car sometimes. To me, I generally like the feel of American cars…yes heavy, but softer. This is changing these last few years though as imports become more American style soft in some cases. ---
**Author:** ![Vovchandr](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/vovchandr/32/6275_2.png) [@Vovchandr](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Vovchandr)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2008, 7:50am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/ford-gm-dodge-vs-everybody-bailout/240240/58 "2008-11-20T07:50:22Z")
> [@Jammer](#): > > I know, that’s my point, to an extent. GM needs to be broken completely and rebuilt the old way…with earnings in mind… thus quality and design become imperative. You can make crappy cars and make a profit, or you can make good cars and make a profit, however what the Big 3 was doing, was building lower quality cars and selling them as contenders for quality cars, meanwhile either being undersold by my cheaper imports or being beat in quality by Germans or Asians. Plus you don’t spend $40,000 per person to fly to Washington on your private jets out of “Safety Reasons” to tell congress that you’re scrambling to get every dollar. They just DON’T GET IT. ---
**Author:** ![Jammer](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/jammer/32/6349_2.png) [@Jammer](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Jammer)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2008, 8:28am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/ford-gm-dodge-vs-everybody-bailout/240240/59 "2008-11-20T08:28:22Z")
> [@Vovchandr](#): > > You can make crappy cars and make a profit, or you can make good cars and make a profit, however what the Big 3 was doing, was building lower quality cars and selling them as contenders for quality cars, meanwhile either being undersold by my cheaper imports or being beat in quality by Germans or Asians. > > Plus you don’t spend $40,000 per person to fly to Washington on your private jets out of “Safety Reasons” to tell congress that you’re scrambling to get every dollar. > > They just DON’T GET IT. no argument there!!! ---
**Author:** ![plaf713](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/439d5e/32.png) [@plaf713](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/plaf713)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2008, 6:13pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/ford-gm-dodge-vs-everybody-bailout/240240/60 "2008-11-20T18:13:57Z")
well they got there bailout [Previous page](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/ford-gm-dodge-vs-everybody-bailout/240240.md?page=2) [Next page](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/ford-gm-dodge-vs-everybody-bailout/240240.md?page=4)