# Foriegn \> Dumbestic automakers **URL:** \ **Category:** NYSpeed Automotive\ **Created:** [December 22, 2008, 10:06am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/foriegn-dumbestic-automakers/60140 "2008-12-22T10:06:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![traumadog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8baadc/32.png) [@traumadog](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/traumadog)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 1:24pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/foriegn-dumbestic-automakers/60140/41 "2008-12-22T13:24:18Z")
Yep - the big 3 made mistakes - ones that should have been corrected decades ago, rather than in the last few years. Of course, most of the leadership from those decades are now dead, yet we still hold the companies hostage to those long-ago decisions. It’s almost analogous to saying that America’s horrendous international reputation from our current mess in Iraq is because Bush/41 didn’t have the cojones to finish the job in '91. And yet, America has had a remarkable turnaround in its international standing following an election of a guy yet to take office. And despite that, we still pillory our domestics for attempting a turnaround in the current environment - one with visible signs of progress. For example, Mullally can take credit for Ford’s quality rankings being equal to TM/HM, yet the “Ford still builds crap because of my '74 Torino” mentality is still out there. ---
**Author:** ![Paulo](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/paulo/32/7328_2.png) [@Paulo](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Paulo)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 1:26pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/foriegn-dumbestic-automakers/60140/42 "2008-12-22T13:26:23Z")
> [@Mike93](#): > > My guess is it’s in reponse to those people who earlier in the thread stated something to the effect that GM building a bunch of fuel inefficient vehicles like trucks and SUV’s led to their demise. Now, Toyota tried competing by building big trucks and their plants are now idle…therefore putting them on the same playing field as GM. > > What I find some irony in is that the GM fleet offered the most vehicles with 30+mpg…yet everyone is so quick to say that since they make big trucks that their lineup is full of gas guzzlers. Like I said earlier, lots of stereotypes out there slammin the domestics… Yeah I figured the same, but I wanted him to respond. lol Toyota broke into the truck market to try and pull more people into their consumer base. They are trying to be a well rounded company, and to be honest, have succeeded in doing so. They have been building plants here to not only make the vehicles where they sell, but also eliminate the idea of “imports” when the percentages of many of their vehicles are actually more domestic than some “domestics”, which happen to have a shitload of outsourced components. ---
**Author:** ![Jam](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/jam/32/7235_2.png) [@Jam](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Jam)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 1:30pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/foriegn-dumbestic-automakers/60140/43 "2008-12-22T13:30:14Z")
> [@traumadog](#): > > And despite that, we still pillory our domestics for attempting a turnaround in the current environment - one with visible signs of progress. For example, Mullally can take credit for Ford’s quality rankings being equal to TM/HM, yet the “Ford still builds crap because of my '74 Torino” mentality is still out there. well, if you owned 2 hondas, both which during your ownership started on fire would you ever buy a honda again? i know i wouldnt. but, both of my fords started on fire at one point or another. one was a 90 tempo, and the other was a 94 taurus. neither of my hondas have ever done that. all theyve ever been to me is extremely reliable and low maintenance. i will never buy another big 3 product again because of my past experiences. can you blame me? ---
**Author:** ![MOBOOST4U](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f4b2a3/32.png) [@MOBOOST4U](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/MOBOOST4U)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 1:35pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/foriegn-dumbestic-automakers/60140/44 "2008-12-22T13:35:50Z")
> [@traumadog](#): > > Yep - the big 3 made mistakes - ones that should have been corrected decades ago, rather than in the last few years. Of course, most of the leadership from those decades are now dead, yet we still hold the companies hostage to those long-ago decisions. > > It’s almost analogous to saying that America’s horrendous international reputation from our current mess in Iraq is because Bush/41 didn’t have the cojones to finish the job in '91. And yet, America has had a remarkable turnaround in its international standing following an election of a guy yet to take office. > > And despite that, we still pillory our domestics for attempting a turnaround in the current environment - one with visible signs of progress. For example, Mullally can take credit for Ford’s quality rankings being equal to TM/HM, yet the “Ford still builds crap because of my '74 Torino” mentality is still out there. Stereotypes are hard to shake, yet the majority of this thread was not arguing the big 3’s build quality. Im an import humper because my budget (and the budget of my peers) can only entail cars from an era where imports owned domestics in almost every category. I hope someday I can feel proud to own a GM, Ford or Dodge but in my generation, all I have seen is these companies shit the sheets on so many levels, time and time again. It sounds like you have a beef with the general uninformed auto buyer, rather than people who recognize the true situation of Autos in this world. ---
**Author:** ![traumadog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8baadc/32.png) [@traumadog](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/traumadog)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 1:37pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/foriegn-dumbestic-automakers/60140/45 "2008-12-22T13:37:02Z")
> [@Paulo](#): > > Yeah I figured the same, but I wanted him to respond. lol > > Toyota broke into the truck market to try and pull more people into their consumer base. They are trying to be a well rounded company, and to be honest, have succeeded in doing so. They have been building plants here to not only make the vehicles where they sell, but also eliminate the idea of “imports” when the percentages of many of their vehicles are actually more domestic than some “domestics”, which happen to have a shitload of outsourced components. I’d argue that the overall percentage of the Big 3’s vehicles that are sourced in the US are larger than the overall percentage of the Japanese 3. Of course, the big question then becomes, if the USDM remains contracted to around 10-11 million units/year, will Toyota decide to shutter its more expensive US plants in order to keep its Japanese ones open? I’m sure that if it’s facing multi-year losses, this is something it might wind up doing - rather than keeping the US plants and shuttering the Japanese ones. And what will happen if one (or more) of the big 3 do go under, taking their suppliers with them? As it stands, Toyota’s already announced halts to newer construction in the US, and will rely on imported vehicles in the interim. With weaker ties to US companies than their longstanding ones in Japan, I’d bet that many of the transplants may pull stakes if they persistently lose money. ---
**Author:** ![traumadog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8baadc/32.png) [@traumadog](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/traumadog)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 1:55pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/foriegn-dumbestic-automakers/60140/46 "2008-12-22T13:55:14Z")
> [@Jam](#): > > well, if you owned 2 hondas, both which during your ownership started on fire would you ever buy a honda again? > > i know i wouldnt. but, both of my fords started on fire at one point or another. one was a 90 tempo, and the other was a 94 taurus. neither of my hondas have ever done that. all theyve ever been to me is extremely reliable and low maintenance. > > i will never buy another big 3 product again because of my past experiences. can you blame me? So you’re saying that Fords’ issues are reflected in the others? It’s like saying I won’t buy Nissans because my Toyota’s engine sludged over and failed. > [@MOBOOST4U](#): > > Stereotypes are hard to shake, yet the majority of this thread was not arguing the big 3’s build quality. Im an import humper because my budget (and the budget of my peers) can only entail cars from an era where imports owned domestics in almost every category. I hope someday I can feel proud to own a GM, Ford or Dodge but in my generation, all I have seen is these companies shit the sheets on so many levels, time and time again. > > It sounds like you have a beef with the general uninformed auto buyer, rather than people who recognize the true situation of Autos in this world. Yes, well it’s the general uninformed auto buyer that’s calling for the demise of a major part of American manufacturing in the US. GM still owns more manufacturing plants in the US (45, and 11 in Canada) than all of the Japanese transplants (TM - 9, HM 9, NM - 3) and yet GM’s the one considered “not worth saving” ---
**Author:** ![jt76](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/jt76/32/5100_2.png) [@jt76](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/jt76)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 2:04pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/foriegn-dumbestic-automakers/60140/47 "2008-12-22T14:04:57Z")
> [@MOBOOST4U](#): > > And I get that but there is a reason for import humping… > > If the shitty build and innovation quality that the big three threw at us for the last 20 years wasn’t enough, they had to go and submit to shitty business practices. > > People hump imports because for the last twenty years, they were clearly better cars. Now for the first time since the 80’s, when the big 3’s production quality has risen to somewhat match (even thats debateabale) foreign auto makers, they cant even keep themselves in business. So we dint buy their cars, and were still paying for them via taxes and the bailout. > > Dont get me wrong, im all for the Bailout and wanting to see these companies rise to the top again, but they better not make the same mistakes twice. blah blah blah past 20 years of american cars…how old are you? jw… Im 22, in my driving lifetime, i got my license in 2004, the US made cars are pretty damn good… i also had a 1993 Chevy 2500 which was a beast to 200k miles when i finally sold it for a grand. My Jeep grand cherokee is a 2004, it currently has 158k miles on it and is great, no problems except for a window motor 2 years ago. My TA is a 2000 has a cam and exhaust and raped 90% of eveyrthing i ran last year. On the other hand every BMW my dad has owned with the exception of the current one has had plenty of issues (1997 328i (which i drove for a bit also) a shit load of electrical problems, 2003 M3 blew a tranny, 2005 X5, liked to blow gaskets and his current 5 series) My 2000 accord wasnt a bad car, just liked to blow fuel and brake lines. I really dont see the real world supposed shittyness of American cars, pretty comparable to the rest IMO ---
**Author:** ![MOBOOST4U](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f4b2a3/32.png) [@MOBOOST4U](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/MOBOOST4U)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 2:15pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/foriegn-dumbestic-automakers/60140/48 "2008-12-22T14:15:54Z")
> [@jt76](#): > > blah blah blah past 20 years of american cars…how old are you? jw… > > Im 22, in my driving lifetime, i got my license in 2004, the US made cars are pretty damn good… i also had a 1993 Chevy 2500 which was a beast to 200k miles when i finally sold it for a grand. My Jeep grand cherokee is a 2004, it currently has 158k miles on it and is great, no problems except for a window motor 2 years ago. My TA is a 2000 has a cam and exhaust and raped 90% of eveyrthing i ran last year. On the other hand every BMW my dad has owned with the exception of the current one has had plenty of issues (1997 328i (which i drove for a bit also) a shit load of electrical problems, 2003 M3 blew a tranny, 2005 X5, liked to blow gaskets and his current 5 series) My 2000 accord wasnt a bad car, just liked to blow fuel and brake lines. I really dont see the real world supposed shittyness of American cars, pretty comparable to the rest IMO Im 20 and then that can be your bias and I will hold my own. I grew up in a primarily American car family and we have had nothing but problems. My friends who own American cars, also nothing but problems and repairs. However, my friends and family friends with imports (everything from Acura to VW) seem to never have problems. Im not going to get into a debate about this as it is as moot of an argument as they come. My fiends dad who collects classics, even will only DD imports. My first American beaters broke with less than one winter on them, My last two recent beaters (Audi & Hyundai) either made me heavy profits through insurance claims or continue to run despite no repairs or even routine maintenance being done on them. This is my experience in a short life around cars. I would go into the performance aspect of why I like imports more but then we will be here all day. EDIT: And keep in mind, I have given credit to American Automakers on their recent build quality 3 times in this thread already. EVEN THOUGH THAT IS NOT THE INITIAL DISCUSSION AT HAND HERE. ---
**Author:** ![OriginalSterm](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/originalsterm/32/4964_2.png) [@OriginalSterm](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/OriginalSterm)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 7:16pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/foriegn-dumbestic-automakers/60140/49 "2008-12-22T19:16:12Z")
> [@theblue](#): > > So if mexicans like GM cars you would recommend they all move to the US? I think the point is more along the lines of… your car is german your computer is japanese your clothes are italian your furniture is swedish your gadgets are chinese and you wonder why your job was outsourced to india This isn’t directed at anyone in particular, just an email I saw a while back that kind of insinuates that eventually the US will have nothing to support itself or help it to recover. ---
**Author:** ![Sansone](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/sansone/32/4970_2.png) [@Sansone](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Sansone)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 7:24pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/foriegn-dumbestic-automakers/60140/50 "2008-12-22T19:24:42Z")
Foreign. ---
**Author:** ![NYstanger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/6a8cbe/32.png) [@NYstanger](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/NYstanger)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 8:16pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/foriegn-dumbestic-automakers/60140/51 "2008-12-22T20:16:38Z")
So this is toyotas first reported loss since 1941. Now someone look up when the last time GM reported a profit… ---
**Author:** ![Joe](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/joe/32/7219_2.png) [@Joe](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Joe)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 12:00am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/foriegn-dumbestic-automakers/60140/52 "2008-12-23T00:00:48Z")
Tariff the shit out of imports built overseas. For that matter, domestics built overseas too. Then you’ll see cars built for Americans by Americans. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/uploads/speedlife/original/2X/b/b7170c8eddc0b95ece6b88172b2f416a08489a45.png) [@system](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/system)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 1:04am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/foriegn-dumbestic-automakers/60140/53 "2008-12-23T01:04:23Z")
> [@Joe](#): > > Tariff the shit out of imports built overseas. For that matter, domestics built overseas too. Then you’ll see cars built for Americans by Americans. Do you think the quality would go up then? ---
**Author:** ![jt76](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/jt76/32/5100_2.png) [@jt76](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/jt76)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 3:08am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/foriegn-dumbestic-automakers/60140/54 "2008-12-23T03:08:45Z")
the quality is fine right now, the problem is the retards that are running the companies… but i agree, this goddamn country is turning into a service based economy, we NEED to retain the manufacturing jobs we have ---
**Author:** ![Jam](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/jam/32/7235_2.png) [@Jam](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Jam)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 7:18am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/foriegn-dumbestic-automakers/60140/55 "2008-12-23T07:18:41Z")
> [@traumadog](#): > > So you’re saying that Fords’ issues are reflected in the others? It’s like saying I won’t buy Nissans because my Toyota’s engine sludged over and failed. oh, no that was simply an example. i wont buy a chevy because i owned a cavalier and it was a bigger pile of shit that both of my fords were. also, i wont buy a chrysler because my gf has a 2000 chrysler town and country that is a pile of shit as well. from the oil caps separating and taking 15 minutes to remove, to the terrifying strut tower rot on an 8 year old car to the tranny that blew up (quite literally) with exactly 100k on the clock ect ect… no thanks. ---
**Author:** ![theblue](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/theblue/32/5074_2.png) [@theblue](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/theblue)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 7:19am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/foriegn-dumbestic-automakers/60140/56 "2008-12-23T07:19:01Z")
> [@OriginalSterm](#): > > I think the point is more along the lines of… > your car is german > your computer is japanese > your clothes are italian > your furniture is swedish > your gadgets are chinese > and you wonder why your job was outsourced to india > > This isn’t directed at anyone in particular, just an email I saw a while back that kind of insinuates that eventually the US will have nothing to support itself or help it to recover. the longer we pretend we’re still a manufacturing powerhouse, the longer we are doomed. ---
**Author:** ![LZ1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@LZ1](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/LZ1)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 7:24am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/foriegn-dumbestic-automakers/60140/57 "2008-12-23T07:24:38Z")
> [@theblue](#): > > the longer we pretend we’re still a manufacturing powerhouse, the longer we are doomed. :word: ---
**Author:** ![BigRon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@BigRon](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/BigRon)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 7:36am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/foriegn-dumbestic-automakers/60140/58 "2008-12-23T07:36:43Z")
> [@NYstanger](#): > > So this is toyotas first reported loss since 1941. Now someone look up when the last time GM reported a profit… Right now they have a gross profit of 12.12 Billion. [http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ks?s=GM](http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ks?s=GM) Now if you are asking the last time net income was postive for a quarter (since toyota’s forcast is through March 2009): Q2 2007 [http://www.gm.com/corporate/investor\_information/earnings/hist\_earnings/07\_q2/index.jsp](http://www.gm.com/corporate/investor_information/earnings/hist_earnings/07_q2/index.jsp) For a full year, 2006: [http://www.gm.com/corporate/investor\_information/earnings/hist\_earnings/06\_q4/index.jsp](http://www.gm.com/corporate/investor_information/earnings/hist_earnings/06_q4/index.jsp) ---
**Author:** ![travisn](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/travisn/32/5046_2.png) [@travisn](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/travisn)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 7:36am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/foriegn-dumbestic-automakers/60140/59 "2008-12-23T07:36:52Z")
> [@theblue](#): > > I expected better logic from you… > > if we both went to vegas to gamble and you lost $20 and I lost $50,000 would you simply say we’re both bad gamblers. if anyone lost $20 they would walk away and forget about it, If someone lost $50k, they would be a bad gambler, your thought process is flawed. > [@nutsandboldts05](#): > > The import humping and the Big 3 bashing is sickening. If you’re so unhappy with American vehicles move to Europe where you can drive all the VW’s you want. Way to support the economy, the same economy that helps keep your country what it is today!!! If I’m to buy a non-American vehicle, its because I like the over-all design of the car better; not becuase I feel it has better quality. All of the American automakers have been stepping up their over-all designs, that including looks and quality, therefore making their cars more apealing to everyone these days. Most people in this argument and in the US aren’t buying new cars, which effects the vehicle makers. Its irrelevant what brand of used car you buy because it will help the (local) economy regardless. Its the fact that most people arent buying new cars that is causing everyone to report a loss this year, but then again: > [@Maksim2000](#): > > Toyota: -$2bn for the year > Big Three: -$17.5bn to last until spring ---
**Author:** ![OriginalSterm](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/originalsterm/32/4964_2.png) [@OriginalSterm](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/OriginalSterm)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 9:51am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/foriegn-dumbestic-automakers/60140/60 "2008-12-23T09:51:45Z")
> [@theblue](#): > > the longer we pretend we’re still a manufacturing powerhouse, the longer we are doomed. Not arguing that we lead the world in manufacturing. But if have go to or near zero manufacturing capacity in this country things will continue to get worse. A strong economy is well rounded and flexible, not focused entirely on service. [Previous page](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/foriegn-dumbestic-automakers/60140.md?page=2) [Next page](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/foriegn-dumbestic-automakers/60140.md?page=4)