# FS: Roll Cages **URL:** \ **Category:** Vendor Marketplace\ **Created:** [March 11, 2007, 10:01am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/fs-roll-cages/104379 "2007-03-11T10:01:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![zeeshan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c4cdca/32.png) [@zeeshan](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/zeeshan)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2007, 4:50am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/fs-roll-cages/104379/21 "2007-03-16T04:50:28Z")
anyone planning to race and use this as a safety item, please do not buy this. it WILL fail if you do crash. this guy is pathetic for even trying to sell this off as a roll cage. you should be ashamed for selling a FLAWED safety item. when someone dies because of the shit you made, i hope it stays in your conscience for the rest of your life. ---
**Author:** ![zeeshan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c4cdca/32.png) [@zeeshan](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/zeeshan)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2007, 4:57am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/fs-roll-cages/104379/22 "2007-03-16T04:57:02Z")
> [@~\*OFFICIAL Buffalo Sabres Thread\*~](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/official-buffalo-sabres-thread/4208/1521): > > I can understand that to a degree but what you must realize is what I’m “preaching” is right from the FIA guidelines which are followed by Targa or the NHRA for good reason. > > You also must realize that your experince or skill as a tradesmen is not in question. We are not bashing your skill such as welds or the way you may or may not have cut & bent the tubing… All we are stating is that “Design” you have gone with “much like the Cucso” regardless if you use different/thicker material is not up to standards if you join/bolt everything the way you do/are “from that picture”, infact its advised against in any rulebook I have came across UNLESS it is not “possible” to do other wise (which it can be) and even at that, it is allowed for rear stays only and also must be done proper with gussets. EVERY main hoop must be braced along with the rear stays and every joining section between the two must be gusseted (everything the Cusco design is not). > > As far as I’m aware I did not post anything dirty or hurtful ? I added “constructive criticisim” and kept it clean yet I was still looked upon rudely. If you would like me to plan out turn the PDF rule book sections into jpgs and post them, where it states everything wrong with that “Design” (not your Skill or Experince) is wrong then I will. This is constructive criticisim from one fabricator to another who has dealt directly with the Targa Boys and have caged a few Cars now for them and I know first hand how strict they are with “bolt in cages” andwhat is and is not allowed. Yes every rulebook will be slightly different but in all fairness and realness, if it does not meet FIA Standards, then it should not be made… like D1s standard for 1.25’’ x .075’’ tubing, they do not call for any bracing or anything. Standards like that cannot be took serious one bit. > > All this being said, I will apologize myself if you feel I have taken a personal attack at you as that was never my intent. why is it that every fucking fabricator now days thinks he’s an engineer? ---
**Author:** ![Fobwall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7ea924/32.png) [@Fobwall](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Fobwall)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2007, 8:43am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/fs-roll-cages/104379/23 "2007-03-16T08:43:25Z")
> [@carlisle \> \*](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/carlisle/11710/10): > > why is it that every fucking fabricator now days thinks he’s an engineer? That’s because he’s an engineer. ---
**Author:** ![AnDrEw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AnDrEw](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/AnDrEw)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2007, 8:44am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/fs-roll-cages/104379/24 "2007-03-16T08:44:52Z")
> [@Fobwall"](#): > > That’s because he’s an engineer. And so am I. That makes 2 commenting in this thread. But yes Turbozee your right, it is not safe. Andrew. ---
**Author:** ![Fobwall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7ea924/32.png) [@Fobwall](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Fobwall)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2007, 8:55am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/fs-roll-cages/104379/25 "2007-03-16T08:55:18Z")
I forgot to add that I’m also an engineer. That makes 3. ---
**Author:** ![nocwage](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/nocwage/32/5489_2.png) [@nocwage](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/nocwage)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2007, 9:01am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/fs-roll-cages/104379/26 "2007-03-16T09:01:30Z")
> [@carlisle \> \*](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/carlisle/11710/27): > > I forgot to add that I’m also an engineer. > > That makes 3. If you’re an engineer how about you design your way out of a ban? ---
**Author:** ![Theo23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/43a26b/32.png) [@Theo23](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Theo23)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2007, 2:54pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/fs-roll-cages/104379/27 "2007-03-16T14:54:39Z")
I like to drive trains too, can I be an engineer? ---
**Author:** ![twistedsteel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6f9a4e/32.png) [@twistedsteel](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/twistedsteel)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2007, 3:54pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/fs-roll-cages/104379/28 "2007-03-16T15:54:08Z")
> [@Turbo lotus hunts, misfires, blah blah blah](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/turbo-lotus-hunts-misfires-blah-blah-blah/11625/44): > > And so am I. That makes 2 commenting in this thread. > But yes Turbozee your right, it is not safe. > > Andrew. The original design may be questionable but I have redesigened this cage to comply to the following rules… Taken from: [http://www.idcracing.com/Rules/2007%20IDC%20Rules%20V1.4.pdf](http://www.idcracing.com/Rules/2007%20IDC%20Rules%20V1.4.pdf) - 18 - 13.0 Specifications & Appendixes 13.01 Roll Cage Appendix A Roll Cage Construction All roll cage construction should conform to the FIA standards. It is the drivers and vehicle builder’s responsibility to maintain their cage to any and all updated bulletins pertaining to the construction of the cage. The bellow appendix is only to be used as a guide. Material and construction specifications and recommended designs are contained in FIA Sporting CODE, Appendix J, Article 253, Section 8 and any supplemental updates to that standard. Basic Design Considerations The basic purpose of the roll bar is to protect the driver if the car turns over or is involved in a serious accident. This purpose should not be forgotten if the car turns over, runs into an obstacle such as a guardrail or catch fence or is struck by another car. It must be designed to withstand compression forces from the weight of the coming down on the roll-over structure and to take fore and aft and lateral loads resulting from the car skidding along the ground on its roll-over structure. The top of the roll bar must be a minimum of 2 inches above the top of the driver’s helmet when the driver is sitting in normal driving position (as near the roof as possible on closed cars) and shall not be more than 6 inches behind the driver. The roll bar must be designed to withstand compression forces resulting from the weight of the car coming down on the roll structure, and to take fore-and-aft loads resulting from the car skidding along the ground on the roll structure. The roll bar must be able to withstand three simultaneously applied loads: · 1.5 G Lateral · 5.5 G Fore-and aft · 7.5 G Vertical The induced loads being carried over into the primary structure. The two vertical members forming the sides of the hoop shall not be less than 15 inches apart inside dimension. It is recommended that the roll bar extend the full width of the cockpit to provide maximum bearing area. A system of head restraint to prevent whiplash and prevent the driver’s head from striking the underside of the roll bar must be installed on all vehicles. The head restraint must have a minimum area of 36 square inches and be padded with a non-resilient material such as Ethafoam or Ensolite or other similar material with a minimum thickness of 1". The head restraint must be capable of withstanding a force of 200 lbs. in a rearward direction. Forward braces and portions of the roll bar hoop subject to contact by the driver’s helmet (as seated normally and restrained by his/her restraint system) must be padded with a protective padding of non-resilient material such as Ethafoam or Ensolite or other similar material with a minimum thickness of ½”. No portion of the roll bar/roll cage shall have an aerodynamic effect by creating a vertical thrust. Material Seamless, ERW (electrical resistance welded) or DOM (drawn over mandrel) mild steel tubing (SAE 1010, 1020, 1025) or equivalent or alloy steel tubing (SAE 4125, 4130) (T-45). Alloy steels (proof of which is the responsibility of the entrant) must be normalized to relieve stress after welding. ERW tubing must have the weld to the inside of all bends. The roll bar hoop and all braces must be of seamless, ERW or DOM mild steel tubing or chrome molybdenum alloy steel such as SAE 4125 or SAE 4130. It is recommended that mild steel tubing be used as chromium alloys present difficulties in welding and must be normalized to relieve stress. Proof of the use of alloy steel will be the responsibility of the entrant. The size of the tubing shall be determined by the weight of the car. Minimum size requirements are: Vehicle Race Weight Minimum Size Under 1500 lbs. 1 1/4" O.D. x .090" wall 1500 to 2500 lbs. 1 ½” O.D. x .120" wall Over 2500 lbs. 2 1/4" O.D. x .120" wall Mounting Hardware Where bolts and nuts are used, the bolts shall be at least 3/8" diameter SAE Grade 5 or equivalent aircraft quality. Fabrication One continuous length of tubing must be used for the hoop member with smooth continuous bends and no evidence of crimping or wall failure. It is recommended that the radius of the roll bar hoop be such that the minimum outside width measured at a point 4 inches below its uppermost point is 12 inches. Whenever possible the roll bar hoop should start from the floor of the car and, in the case of tube frame construction, be attached to the chassis tubes by means of gussets or sheet metal webs in order to distribute the loads. All welding must be of the highest possible quality with full penetration. Arc welding, particularly heliarc, should be used wherever possible. The welds should be inspected by magnaflux or dyes penetrate after fabrication. Alloy steel must be normalized after welding. Bracing Full cockpit width roll bar hoops must have two fore or two aft braces, one on each side of the hoop, of tubing with dimensions at least equal to the minimum dimensions required for the main roll bar hoop. All roll bars must include a transverse brace from the top of the hoop on one side to the bottom of the hoop on the other side, or alternatively, to the bottom of a rearward brace required above. Roll bar hoops on Formula cars and cars with partial width hoops may have either one fore/aft brace with a minimum dimension equal to the tubing required for the main hoop, or two fore/aft braces with a minimum dimension of 1.0" x .090" mild steel or .750" x .090" alloy steel. The bracing must be attached as near as practical to the top of the roll bar hoop, but not more than 6" below the top of the hoop, and at an angle of at least 30 degrees from vertical. If a single brace tube is used, it must be attached to the top of the main hoop. If the fore/aft bracing must be removable, the connection between the roll bar hoop and the brace-rod must be of the double lug type fabricated from material at least 3/16" thickness and welded through a double or gusset arrangement to avoid distortion or excessive strains caused by welding. It is recommended that the fore/aft brace be attached to a rear chassis member through a double lug connection. If attached to the engine, it must mount to a major component such as a head stud or combination of head studs. Mounting Plates Roll bars and braces must be attached to the frame of the car whenever possible. Mounting plates must be a minimum of 12 square inches. Mounting plates, regardless of whether welded or bolted to the frame, must be at least 3/16" thick. In case of cars with unitized or frameless construction, or cars with frames where frame-mounting of the roll bar is impractical, mounting plates must be used to secure the roll bar structure to the floor of the car. Mounting plates shall be a minimum of 12 square inches. It is recommended that they have a minimum area of 1.5 square inches per each 100 lbs of Vehicle weight. The important consideration is that the load be distributed over as large an area as possible. Mounting plates bolted to the structure shall not be less than the minimum required wall thickness of the hoop with a backup plate of equal size and thickness on the opposite side of the panel with plates bolted together with a minimum of three each 3/8" grade 5 bolts. Removable Roll Bars Removable roll bars and braces must be very carefully designed and constructed to be at least as strong as a permanent installation. If one tube fits inside another tube to facilitate removal, the removable portion must fit tightly and must bottom on the permanent mounting, and at least two bolts must be used to secure each such joint. The telescope section must be at least 8" in length. Side Intrusion Bars The minimum side protection must consist of a horizontal tube not less than 1.50" x .095" connecting the front and rear hoops across the driver’s door opening. Additionally, there must also be either a diagonal tube from the front hoop bisecting the door opening below the horizontal side tube, or not less than 2 horizontal side tubes not less than 1.50" in diameter x .095" wall thickness. Additional tubing may be added. Installation on Cars of Space Frame and Frameless Design It is important that roll bar structures be attached to cars in such a way as to spread the loads over a wide area. It is not sufficient to simply attach the roll bar to a single tube or junction of tubes. The roll bar must be designed in such a way as to be an extension of the frame itself, not simply an attachment to the frame. Considerable care must be used to add as necessary to the frame structure itself in such a way as to properly distribute the loads. It is not true that a roll bar can only be as strong as any single tube in the frame. On cars of frameless construction, consideration should be given to using a vertical roll bar hoop of 360 degrees completely around the inside of the car, and attached with suitable mounting plates. This type of roll bar then becomes a substitute for the frame. I hope this clears things up Thanks James NCC Performance ---
**Author:** ![twistedsteel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6f9a4e/32.png) [@twistedsteel](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/twistedsteel)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2007, 3:58pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/fs-roll-cages/104379/29 "2007-03-16T15:58:45Z")
> [@I've never felt so sick in my life over a car.](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/ive-never-felt-so-sick-in-my-life-over-a-car/11717/38): > > anyone planning to race and use this as a safety item, please do not buy this. it WILL fail if you do crash. > > this guy is pathetic for even trying to sell this off as a roll cage. > you should be ashamed for selling a FLAWED safety item. > > when someone dies because of the shit you made, i hope it stays in your conscience for the rest of your life. I’m not sure who you are or if u actually have a clue what the hell u r talking about, most likely u get off on this, which makes u pathetic… there the rules enjoy… ---
**Author:** ![AnDrEw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AnDrEw](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/AnDrEw)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2007, 4:53pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/fs-roll-cages/104379/30 "2007-03-16T16:53:12Z")
I’m surprised at IDC for having lesser rules than Formula D or SCCA. Well I guess you will be using 1.5x120 wall tubing like I said. Frigging 12 sq in backing plate is retarded, thats a 3x4 inch plate. And only 3 bolts :S These specs are nowhere near CASC which is Canadian sanctioning body. However if you are building cages for cars racing in IDC, and you follow their requirement it will pass. Customer won’t be racing in anything else tho. Andrew. ---
**Author:** ![atutt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c4cdca/32.png) [@atutt](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/atutt)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2007, 6:28pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/fs-roll-cages/104379/31 "2007-03-16T18:28:34Z")
Now, I have a question. Why not just do a weld in cage instead of a bolt in? You have the welding equipment to do so, right? ---
**Author:** ![twistedsteel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6f9a4e/32.png) [@twistedsteel](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/twistedsteel)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2007, 6:54pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/fs-roll-cages/104379/32 "2007-03-16T18:54:50Z")
> [@carlisle \> \*](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/carlisle/11710/63): > > Now, I have a question. Why not just do a weld in cage instead of a bolt in? You have the welding equipment to do so, right? I could very well do so for any one interested in a weld in style cage to meet any specific rules for any sactioning bodies but the idea was that I could sell pre made powder coated cages what would pass under certain rules buyer’s would be encouraged first to check rules in which they are competing. Or I could sell the pieces as a kit to weld in your self, main hoop, front stays, rear stays, brow bar, footing plates and mounting hardware… Thanks James NCC Performance ---
**Author:** ![zeeshan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c4cdca/32.png) [@zeeshan](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/zeeshan)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2007, 11:10pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/fs-roll-cages/104379/33 "2007-03-16T23:10:57Z")
> [@Back in the Game](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/back-in-the-game/11742/10): > > I could very well do so for any one interested in a weld in style cage to meet any specific rules for any sactioning bodies but the idea was that I could sell pre made powder coated cages what would pass under certain rules buyer’s would be encouraged first to check rules in which they are competing. Or I could sell the pieces as a kit to weld in your self, main hoop, front stays, rear stays, brow bar, footing plates and mounting hardware… > > Thanks James > NCC Performance if you sell weld in kits, youll make a lot more money for less work and then it becomes the customer’s responsibility, not yours so do this! ---
**Author:** ![atutt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c4cdca/32.png) [@atutt](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/atutt)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2007, 2:23pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/fs-roll-cages/104379/34 "2007-03-17T14:23:56Z")
well, technically you could weld in a bolt in cage if you really wanted to ---
**Author:** ![Fobwall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7ea924/32.png) [@Fobwall](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Fobwall)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2007, 2:38pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/fs-roll-cages/104379/35 "2007-03-17T14:38:15Z")
So why not just weld in a cage to begin with? That’s like having one of those steering wheel locks as well as having a quick release hub for your steering wheel. ---
**Author:** ![Jedi\_Car\_Fan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Jedi\_Car\_Fan](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Jedi_Car_Fan)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2007, 2:49pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/fs-roll-cages/104379/36 "2007-03-17T14:49:06Z")
Their really only are a few reasons why someone would/should get a Bolt In Cage vs. a Weld In Cage and in theory, one isn’t exactly better then the other BUT… One reason “most” Rulebooks suggest the use of a “Bolt In Cage” is because if built to the proper specifications it “can” be just as strong/stronger then the Welded in Unit… NOW reason I say that is BECAUSE if some unknown “kid we’ll say” Welds his Cage into his Car but cannot weld worth a shit, then you would NOT want to replay on those Welds as they may be iffy but the luckily-hood of multiple grade 8 bolts sheering a part is less then likely. Then it comes down to the Vehicle… Some people may use their car as a daily driver but might also want to go to the track. Well they may or may not want to have a Cage Welded permanently but rather have one their able to Bolt In for the track, then remove during the week. Then you can get into the MTO/HTA laws towards “Caged Vehicles” also… Insurance. If 75%-90% of the Company’s out their found out that their 18-21yr old Clients are driving around with fully Caged Cars, they will drop your ass REAL quick, SO if it’s a Bolt In Cage you could say (Im sorry, I’ll just unbolt it, and they might accept that) well if its Welded in… You are cutting it out and blah blah (more of pita in my opinion) ---
**Author:** ![atutt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c4cdca/32.png) [@atutt](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/atutt)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2007, 3:23pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/fs-roll-cages/104379/37 "2007-03-17T15:23:58Z")
///\ good call… ---
**Author:** ![spd-dmn](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/spd-dmn/32/5513_2.png) [@spd-dmn](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/spd-dmn)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2007, 3:25pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/fs-roll-cages/104379/38 "2007-03-17T15:25:55Z")
Please show us these HTA laws against caged vehicles… ---
**Author:** ![atutt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c4cdca/32.png) [@atutt](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/atutt)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2007, 3:26pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/fs-roll-cages/104379/39 "2007-03-17T15:26:43Z")
But there are also things like half cages. but, if it’s a dedicated track car, would it be safe to assume that the better option would be to opt for a weld in cage. ---
**Author:** ![Jedi\_Car\_Fan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Jedi\_Car\_Fan](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Jedi_Car_Fan)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2007, 4:18pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/fs-roll-cages/104379/40 "2007-03-17T16:18:09Z")
> [@On another topic](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/11754/6): > > Please show us these HTA laws against caged vehicles… Well, for starters… > **Regulations, safety devices** > > 1. (1) The Lieutenant Governor in Council may make regulations, Meaning… you need to take your newly caged vehicle to tech guys @ TMP and have them inspect and certify your cage (and hope it passes), once they do that you can then go see MTO to present the situation and then inform them you have took the nessecary steps to ensure the cage was done proper and is safe blah blah blah So when or IF a cop decides to screw with you, even if he gives you a ticket for whatever reason, it will be thrown out instantly in court. > **[e-Laws](https://www.ontario.ca/laws)** > > Our staff can't provide legal advice, interpret the law or conduct research. You may be able to obtain assistance from a lawyer or paralegal. Their is also another section Im looking for which states the Cage Vehicle must still pass a Safety Inspection… Meaning you can see through ALL windows and mirros without ANY bars blocking your vision. You must be able to get in and out of the Car in a easy fashion and you must be able to roll the windows down 100% (more if you have manual windows, no side/door bar can interfere with operating it "smoothly). [Previous page](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/fs-roll-cages/104379.md?page=1) [Next page](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/fs-roll-cages/104379.md?page=3)