# I have an experiment for anyone who didn't think the plane will take off **URL:** \ **Category:** NYSpeed Off Topic\ **Created:** [February 15, 2006, 7:21pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/i-have-an-experiment-for-anyone-who-didnt-think-the-plane-will-take-off/8217 "2006-02-15T19:21:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![tpgsr](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/tpgsr/32/7374_2.png) [@tpgsr](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/tpgsr)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2006, 10:03pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/i-have-an-experiment-for-anyone-who-didnt-think-the-plane-will-take-off/8217/101 "2006-04-06T22:03:05Z")
> [@wetwork](#): > > then should i just quit and go back to school and tell them that someone on a car forum told me i was wrong and that my time wasted in school was not worth the money spent? because that car forum person drew up a diagram not factoring in that you need air moving to create lift? > > **do you know know who i am or what i do… nope, so i may not be just a “car forum person”** > > yes the jets cause it to move forward but without the wheels that is just not possible and making the wheels do 2 times the mount of work makes the jets do 2 times the work making it no efficient. > > **No one said anything about if it is efficient or not just if it would work!** > > yes it could work if you made the jets do 2 times or more the work then needed > [@wetwork](#): > > fuzzy fish is catching on to my idea… the plane is not getting the force of air it needs to lift it. > > **No he is proving you wrong yet again** > > when you run on a treadmill like i said and you go 5 miles and hour an hats how fast the treadmill is going your running inplace… well the plane is standing still with the wheels moving but its not going forward… > > **Now strap a jet engine to your back, and i bet you splatter against the wall. Dont believe me? By all means go attempt it** > > if you increase the jet engine to do 2 times the work then you will move forward > > same as if your treadmill s going 5 against you and you start to increaseyour speed or double your effort your moving 10 and your moving faster then your treadmil hence your going forward and not standing the same spot. > **that is because the friction of your feet is where your acceleration is coming from. Now if the plane was accelerated by its wheels then you would be right!** Anxiously awaiting fuzzys video… it should be entertaining ---
**Author:** ![Bacon](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/bacon/32/7230_2.png) [@Bacon](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Bacon)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2006, 10:05pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/i-have-an-experiment-for-anyone-who-didnt-think-the-plane-will-take-off/8217/102 "2006-04-06T22:05:47Z")
I’ll probably be up until 5am working on this you evil bastards. I’ll even upload the level so those with HL2 can play it lol. ---
**Author:** ![tpgsr](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/tpgsr/32/7374_2.png) [@tpgsr](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/tpgsr)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2006, 10:07pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/i-have-an-experiment-for-anyone-who-didnt-think-the-plane-will-take-off/8217/103 "2006-04-06T22:07:21Z")
Also i am suprised no one has mentioned the harrier. It is capable of vertical takeoff, no forces whatsoever on the wheels, they could be spinning 11tybillion rpm and it would still fly ---
**Author:** ![wetwork](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7cd45c/32.png) [@wetwork](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/wetwork)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2006, 10:08pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/i-have-an-experiment-for-anyone-who-didnt-think-the-plane-will-take-off/8217/104 "2006-04-06T22:08:09Z")
the wheels are accelerated by the jets obviously hence the jets provide the wheels to move forward… so my question to you then is how does this work? how does it create the speed of lift? and if you want to show me how this works by all means! stop in! this will not work. as much as you guys want to think so its impossible trust me if this worked don’t you think we would be using it today? this , if it was able to work then flights would not get cancelled due to over runway population and they wouldn’t even have to leave their section of the airfield to take off. that fact is that it does not work until it is proven that it does its simply not right. ---
**Author:** ![wetwork](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7cd45c/32.png) [@wetwork](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/wetwork)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2006, 10:11pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/i-have-an-experiment-for-anyone-who-didnt-think-the-plane-will-take-off/8217/105 "2006-04-06T22:11:26Z")
> [@tpgsr](#): > > Also i am suprised no one has mentioned the harrier. It is capable of vertical takeoff, no forces whatsoever on the wheels, they could be spinning 11tybillion rpm and it would still fly the harrier has thrusters that turn and angle towards the ground providing it no reason to move. all the work is being done right there. the thrusters are also more powerful then airplane engines. they are so powerful they are lifting the plane from sheer force like a rocket its lifting it up on its own. then they tilt back to the normal postion and thrust is pushed all the way forward creating a go! baby go! effect meaning there is no take off required it can do it from the stand still ---
**Author:** ![HotRodKid](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/hotrodkid/32/7609_2.png) [@HotRodKid](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/HotRodKid)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2006, 10:14pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/i-have-an-experiment-for-anyone-who-didnt-think-the-plane-will-take-off/8217/106 "2006-04-06T22:14:52Z")
> [@wetwork](#): > > the wheels maybe doing 200 miles an hour but how are you creating the lift? > the way it looks is that you are going nowhere. the wheels are not a freestadning thing from the plane like you might think. > > say your tread mill going this way > \<--------- 100 miles per hour. with out any thrust applied its like your in N on a car and your wheels are going 100 miles an hour withthe treadmill > \<------------- that way no nONONONONONONO !!! you realy cant be an enginieer … because your loosing it the treadmill ONLY moves backward when the plane moves FORWARD if the plane is parked, the treadmill automaticly parks itself by design this question sets up the answer … because the only way for the runway to move backwards is for the plane to move forward the plane creates lift because its moving forward !!! ---
**Author:** ![tpgsr](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/tpgsr/32/7374_2.png) [@tpgsr](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/tpgsr)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2006, 10:15pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/i-have-an-experiment-for-anyone-who-didnt-think-the-plane-will-take-off/8217/107 "2006-04-06T22:15:40Z")
> [@wetwork](#): > > **we have tried implementing these kinds of ideas for years.** to be more efficient and make travel alot faster is our ultimate goal!. > > a few of you have said , yes the plane will take off if the “treadmill” is running the opposite direction that the plane is trying to propel itself. > > Reason number 1 why this would work in theory. > as some of you have stated, the wheels have nothing to do with its forward motion, if you said that you are correct, for this theory anyways. And you edited your original post that said something about the belt not being able to withstand the constant abuse lol > [@wetwork](#): > > trust me if this worked don’t you think we would be using it today? > this , if it was able to work then flights would not get cancelled due to over runway population and they wouldn’t even have to leave their section of the airfield to take off. > > that fact is that it does not work until it is proven that it does its simply not right. So which is it? ---
**Author:** ![wetwork](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7cd45c/32.png) [@wetwork](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/wetwork)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2006, 10:16pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/i-have-an-experiment-for-anyone-who-didnt-think-the-plane-will-take-off/8217/108 "2006-04-06T22:16:32Z")
ok well i was under the impression that it was going that way without the planes help… this might work then. it seemed to me that you mean that you had to match the speed with speed already going. you might be able to need to think about it now. ---
**Author:** ![wetwork](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7cd45c/32.png) [@wetwork](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/wetwork)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2006, 10:20pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/i-have-an-experiment-for-anyone-who-didnt-think-the-plane-will-take-off/8217/109 "2006-04-06T22:20:31Z")
> [@tpgsr](#): > > And you edited your original post that said something about the belt not being able to withstand the constant abuse lol > > So which is it? well if you knew how much a plane weighed and how much it cost and what not to make a treeadmill so to speak stand up to the abuse of that of an airplane? plus im not a treadmill specialist or anything so i am not aware of specs that it would need to function. it can be done yes. but costly it would be i think. plus moving parts = sometime it has to break and i cannot imagine it would cheap to repair. and these ideas along with others have been implemented. by this i mean ideas where we have simulated on a computer what could or would possibly happen. although nothing is for sure because you wuld have to build it in order to find out. computers and simulations are only guesses as to what could happen other ideas that can share are a type of hovercraft type deal to where the wheels are replaced. other ideas have been using rocket type jets rather then what the standard is now. it would get it up alot faster. just alot of ides that are played with to try to make things easier. ---
**Author:** ![HotRodKid](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/hotrodkid/32/7609_2.png) [@HotRodKid](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/HotRodKid)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2006, 10:26pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/i-have-an-experiment-for-anyone-who-didnt-think-the-plane-will-take-off/8217/110 "2006-04-06T22:26:06Z")
go to page one, post # 22 … it gives a simple description of the “control system” for the runway instead of sensors and computers to control the runway speed, its a rope and a pulley ---
**Author:** ![wetwork](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7cd45c/32.png) [@wetwork](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/wetwork)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2006, 10:33pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/i-have-an-experiment-for-anyone-who-didnt-think-the-plane-will-take-off/8217/111 "2006-04-06T22:33:09Z")
i might see how this works… but i still do not see lift happening i guess. im not sure why this would work though. a little more explanation is needed. your ideas and the way you are explaining it to me is great it just would seem hard to prove this theory i guess i saw the picture i think i might be able to but imreally not that sure. i will have to run a simulation at work tomorrow but i must be off to bed. i will run it up and have on of the computer nerds help me and i will post my simulation results ---
**Author:** ![tpgsr](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/tpgsr/32/7374_2.png) [@tpgsr](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/tpgsr)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2006, 10:34pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/i-have-an-experiment-for-anyone-who-didnt-think-the-plane-will-take-off/8217/112 "2006-04-06T22:34:30Z")
cool, you and fuzzy make sims, I will sit back and await the results! Goodnight! ---
**Author:** ![wetwork](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7cd45c/32.png) [@wetwork](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/wetwork)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2006, 10:47pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/i-have-an-experiment-for-anyone-who-didnt-think-the-plane-will-take-off/8217/113 "2006-04-06T22:47:18Z")
ye i am eger to see fuzzy fish’s simulation ---
**Author:** ![Bacon](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/bacon/32/7230_2.png) [@Bacon](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Bacon)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 2:25am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/i-have-an-experiment-for-anyone-who-didnt-think-the-plane-will-take-off/8217/114 "2006-04-07T02:25:01Z")
[http://users.adelphia.net/~cdabable/test2.avi](http://users.adelphia.net/%7Ecdabable/test2.avi) I lack good webspace so the quality sucks more than a hoover but here it is. I’m a bit tired, and transport tycoon owns my ass so there is about 30 minutes of work total here. -The plane under ideal conditions can reach a maximum speed of 150 inches/s at full power. (Probably less on the ground) -The runway is fixed at 200 inches/s when activated (50 more than the plane is even possible of reaching, and 50 more than the runway would go if it was in sync) -The plane will take-off around 100ish Note the following: 1.) When I start the runway it doesn’t immediately jump to 200 inches/s in reverse. The wheels are preventing that. 2.) Thrust is being applied near the prop 3.) Wheel speed is the plane speed + 200 inches/s. But not enough to stop the plane from moving forward and taking off. Now I have to get back attempting to catch up to MPD47 and 98Red EX at transport tycoon. Then go to sleep. ---
**Author:** ![Tevenor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8baadc/32.png) [@Tevenor](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Tevenor)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 6:23am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/i-have-an-experiment-for-anyone-who-didnt-think-the-plane-will-take-off/8217/115 "2006-04-07T06:23:32Z")
If my old thermo and hydro dynamics professors read this, they would roll over in their graves. This is only slightly less dumb of an argument than arguing wether or not if you gave a smurf a blowjob, if your tongue would turn blue. Only slightly. If you can’t figure out if the plane would take off under its own power on a treadmill, try the opposite experiment and see what happens there. Anyone ever see those air funnels with guys “flying” in mid air with wing suits on? Amazingly enough they hover in mid air. Why? Because the force of the air pushing them from below perfectly matches the rate of decent due to gravity. Amazing? Not really. Planes fly ( although I can argue about this point as well ) because the relativistic velocity of the air is higher across the upper wing service as compared to the lower. Absolute speed is relatively irrelevant beyond a min critical air speed. Lift is determined by the delta ( difference ) between the the flow above and the flow below. Once the pressure differential is factored ( the specific point I can argue ) if the force is great enough and minimal critical air speed is reached, the plane will “fly”. Take a look at gliders for instance. No jets, no propulsion other than some guy running off a cliff. Is he “flying”? How does he maintain lift with no recumbant propulsion source? It’s all relative air speed as define by the wing surface and the laminar flow of the air across and below it. All that is required is that the air speed is right. This can be a stationary aircraft with enough wind speed to create the lift ( a la Cesna’s taking off by themselves from a stationary spot during hurricanes ) or a combination of wind speed and relative plane speed as compared to the ground ( which is why carriers turn into the wind to launch and retrieve aircraft ), or simple relative plane speed ( thing commercial airliner taking off with 0 mph winds. The thrust of the engines only pushes the plane fast enough to get the necessary air speed across its wings. Rockets/jets give you propulsion. Wings give you lift and control. Put them together you get a plane. Take them apart and you have a firework and a glider. If you ever fly a cessna or other small plane, one critical component is to look at temperature of the surrounding air. Why? because hotter air is less dense and will produce less of a lifting force per a given air speed. So what normally might take you 750ft to take off at 100% power will now take you 850ft to take off at 100% power. Why? Because the extra length will increase your relative air speed across the wings and create the minimum critical lift necessary to overcome your mass being pulled the fuck down by gravity. So to answer the question, unless there is a critical air speed running across the wing surface, it doesn’t matter if the plane is on a treadmill, tied to some pulley contraption, or even being carried on newman’s shoulders, it won’t fly. Until you hit that barrier, it’s a really ugly car. So here’s a bonus discussion topic: if the above situation about the cessna is assumed to be on a 0mph wind day, what would be the necessary distance to lift off the same plane if there was a 30mph head wind? Less, more or the same? ---
**Author:** ![LAFENGAS](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/lafengas/32/7573_2.png) [@LAFENGAS](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/LAFENGAS)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 6:32am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/i-have-an-experiment-for-anyone-who-didnt-think-the-plane-will-take-off/8217/116 "2006-04-07T06:32:49Z")
my God…this is so annoying. Wetwork, you are looking too deeply into this. The only thing you need to know is that the wheels are independent of the propulsion system. The wheels don’t push the plane forward, the jets do. The only thing different about this take-off, the wheels will be moving 2x’s as fast. End of story. THE PLANE WILL TAKE OFF. ---
**Author:** ![Tevenor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8baadc/32.png) [@Tevenor](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Tevenor)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 6:48am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/i-have-an-experiment-for-anyone-who-didnt-think-the-plane-will-take-off/8217/117 "2006-04-07T06:48:46Z")
> [@LAFENGAS](#): > > my God…this is so annoying. > > Wetwork, you are looking too deeply into this. The only thing you need to know is that the wheels are independent of the propulsion system. The wheels don’t push the plane forward, the jets do. The only thing different about this take-off, the wheels will be moving 2x’s as fast. End of story. > > THE PLANE WILL TAKE OFF. A plane will only “take flight, lift off, remove itself from the ground” if there is the air moving across its wings reaches a certain velocity. I don’t care how fast the wheels are turning. I don’t care how hard the engines are “propulsing”. I don’t care if it’s uphill, downhill, or on a treadmill or on a fucking stair master elite. No air speed = no lift = no flight = rock. Without lift, a plane is a projectile like a bullet. Tons of air speed, no lift = drops. Notice that ground speed has ZERO to do with it. [Airspeed and ground speed](http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/instruments/q0210.shtml) ---
**Author:** ![LAFENGAS](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/lafengas/32/7573_2.png) [@LAFENGAS](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/LAFENGAS)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 6:53am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/i-have-an-experiment-for-anyone-who-didnt-think-the-plane-will-take-off/8217/118 "2006-04-07T06:53:56Z")
> [@Tevenor](#): > > A plane will only “take flight, lift off, remove itself from the ground” if there is the air moving across its wings reaches a certain velocity. I don’t care how fast the wheels are turning. I don’t care how hard the engines are “propulsing”. I don’t care if it’s uphill, downhill, or on a treadmill or on a fucking stair master elite. > > No air speed = no lift = no flight = rock. Without lift, a plane is a projectile like a bullet. Tons of air speed, no lift = drops. Notice that ground speed has ZERO to do with it. > > [Airspeed and ground speed](http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/instruments/q0210.shtml) who says there’s no air speed? I don’t get it, you’re contradicting yourself. Do you think the plane will take off or no? If you want to be correct, your answer will be “YES” ---
**Author:** ![TrueBlue](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/trueblue/32/7245_2.png) [@TrueBlue](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/TrueBlue)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 6:55am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/i-have-an-experiment-for-anyone-who-didnt-think-the-plane-will-take-off/8217/119 "2006-04-07T06:55:26Z")
![http://www.nyspeed.com/gallery/files/2/6/4/airplaneontreadmill.gif](http://www.nyspeed.com/gallery/files/2/6/4/airplaneontreadmill.gif) ---
**Author:** ![Tevenor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8baadc/32.png) [@Tevenor](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Tevenor)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 6:59am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/i-have-an-experiment-for-anyone-who-didnt-think-the-plane-will-take-off/8217/120 "2006-04-07T06:59:55Z")
> [@LAFENGAS](#): > > who says there’s no air speed? If we are talking about this image, then since it’s tied to the runway, there can be no air speed unless the entire runways is moving in relation to stationary air. Essentially an aircraft carrier at sea. Sure the treadmill may have a speed of 100mph to the left and the plane has a relativistic speed of 100 mph to the right to counter. But true air speed relativistic to the wing is 0. If we are talking about the avi file Fuzzy posted, then the only reason the plane “took off” was because the forward motion of the plane overcame the speed of the “runway” + enough speed to create the air speed necessary over the wings to create enough lift to overcome gravity. It’s still a flawed experement and does not prove the original hypothesis. My opinion is simple: without air flowing over the wing at a certain speed, the plane won’t take off REGARDLESS of how intricate or complex you make the propulsion system relative to the ground. Moving the treadmill at 100mph does not move the air over the wing at 100mph. [Previous page](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/i-have-an-experiment-for-anyone-who-didnt-think-the-plane-will-take-off/8217.md?page=5) [Next page](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/i-have-an-experiment-for-anyone-who-didnt-think-the-plane-will-take-off/8217.md?page=7)