# I have an experiment for anyone who didn't think the plane will take off **URL:** \ **Category:** NYSpeed Off Topic\ **Created:** [February 15, 2006, 7:21pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/i-have-an-experiment-for-anyone-who-didnt-think-the-plane-will-take-off/8217 "2006-02-15T19:21:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![wetwork](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7cd45c/32.png) [@wetwork](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/wetwork)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 10:54am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/i-have-an-experiment-for-anyone-who-didnt-think-the-plane-will-take-off/8217/161 "2006-04-07T10:54:26Z")
> [@Tevenor](#): > > A plane will only “take flight, lift off, remove itself from the ground” if there is the air moving across its wings reaches a certain velocity. I don’t care how fast the wheels are turning. I don’t care how hard the engines are “propulsing”. I don’t care if it’s uphill, downhill, or on a treadmill or on a fucking stair master elite. > > No air speed = no lift = no flight = rock. Without lift, a plane is a projectile like a bullet. Tons of air speed, no lift = drops. Notice that ground speed has ZERO to do with it. > > [Airspeed and ground speed](http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/instruments/q0210.shtml) this is what im trying to say!!! how would you create lift… thats what i was failing to see.!! tevenor just happened to word it better then i did. and our flight simulation shows just that. there needs to be enough air crossing over the wings and under to create the lift. i think i said that in an earlier post. i am not saying there is no way in hell it won’t work i just wanna see how you get lift. because my looking into it too deeply is where i came up with how do you get the lift? ---
**Author:** ![LAFENGAS](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/lafengas/32/7573_2.png) [@LAFENGAS](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/LAFENGAS)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 10:58am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/i-have-an-experiment-for-anyone-who-didnt-think-the-plane-will-take-off/8217/162 "2006-04-07T10:58:15Z")
> [@wetwork](#): > > this is what im trying to say!!! > > how would you create lift… thats what i was failing to see.!! > > tevenor just happened to word it better then i did. > > and our flight simulation shows just that. there needs to be enough air crossing over the wings and under to create the lift. i think i said that in an earlier post. > > i am not saying there is no way in hell it won’t work i just wanna see how you get lift. because my looking into it too deeply is where i came up with how do you get the lift? you needed to have a flight simulation program tell you that? I’m sorry, but i don’t believe the credentials that you have posted. Can you take a picture of your “flight simulator room” at work? There are way too many things you are overlooking if you are an actual “engineer” for dealing with jet engines. Please, please…not to make fun of you…but take a pic. Otherwise I will never be able to hold your posts valid. The way you word things doesn’t seem right, i don’t feel like i’m talking to another engineer. **_“there needs to be enough air crossing over the wings and under to create the lift”_** do you mean, pressure differential? Because you can have a pressure differential and no flow under the wing. I’m sorry, but the way you talk/type, you don’t seem like a very technical person. ---
**Author:** ![wetwork](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7cd45c/32.png) [@wetwork](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/wetwork)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 10:59am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/i-have-an-experiment-for-anyone-who-didnt-think-the-plane-will-take-off/8217/163 "2006-04-07T10:59:13Z")
> [@Tevenor](#): > > Sure the treadmill may have a speed of 100mph to the left and the plane has a relativistic speed of 100 mph to the right to counter. But true air speed relativistic to the wing is 0. :tup: **this is what i said in the first place about the plane essentially stading still there is no air speed going under or to the wings hence i used the running in place** > > If we are talking about the avi file Fuzzy posted, then the only reason the plane “took off” was because the forward motion of the plane overcame the speed of the “runway” + enough speed to create the air speed necessary over the wings to create enough lift to overcome gravity. It’s still a flawed experement and does not prove the original hypothesis.:tup: **this is the same as i what i said about making the engine do 2 times the work 1 time overcomes the opposite direction and the other is to make it go forward as if every thing was even now your adding a plus 1 to the motion which means your going forward** > > My opinion is simple: without air flowing over the wing at a certain speed, the plane won’t take off REGARDLESS of how intricate or complex you make the propulsion system relative to the ground. Moving the treadmill at 100mph does not move the air over the wing at 100mph.:tup: **this is what i mean when i say where will you get the lift from when your in essence standing still** tevenor has worded all of this better then i could thank you sir. ---
**Author:** ![tpgsr](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/tpgsr/32/7374_2.png) [@tpgsr](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/tpgsr)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 11:00am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/i-have-an-experiment-for-anyone-who-didnt-think-the-plane-will-take-off/8217/164 "2006-04-07T11:00:30Z")
> [@LAFENGAS](#): > > you needed to have a flight simulation program tell you that? I’m sorry, but i don’t believe the credentials that you have posted. Can you take a picture of your “flight simulator room” at work? There are way too many things you are overlooking if you are an actual “engineer” for dealing with jet engines. > > Please, please…not to make fun of you…but take a pic. Otherwise I will never be able to hold your posts valid. This is how I felt at 1:30am. I dont see how he and his boss with a “6yr” degree can not understand this. I laughed at the original thread, this one is 10000000x funnier! ---
**Author:** ![wetwork](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7cd45c/32.png) [@wetwork](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/wetwork)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 11:00am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/i-have-an-experiment-for-anyone-who-didnt-think-the-plane-will-take-off/8217/165 "2006-04-07T11:00:33Z")
its not a simulation room its all done on computer. we have people that do simulations for various different things. i asked if this could be created and the answer was yes. it looks kind of the same as fuzzy fishs just not in a video game. ---
**Author:** ![BluBalls](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/bluballs/32/7212_2.png) [@BluBalls](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/BluBalls)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 11:00am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/i-have-an-experiment-for-anyone-who-didnt-think-the-plane-will-take-off/8217/166 "2006-04-07T11:00:59Z")
jet engines push… pushing = doesn’t matter if plane is on ice or on the mill pushing is pushing. ---
**Author:** ![wetwork](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7cd45c/32.png) [@wetwork](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/wetwork)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 11:01am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/i-have-an-experiment-for-anyone-who-didnt-think-the-plane-will-take-off/8217/167 "2006-04-07T11:01:12Z")
> [@Daddie](#): > > Lots of different points are being argued. > > Lots of people are right. > > But the overall picture - the plane actually does take off… > > I think the original question was misworded… or very very worded fucked up. > > err… engarish i think you are right sir. ---
**Author:** ![tpgsr](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/tpgsr/32/7374_2.png) [@tpgsr](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/tpgsr)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 11:04am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/i-have-an-experiment-for-anyone-who-didnt-think-the-plane-will-take-off/8217/168 "2006-04-07T11:04:00Z")
> [@wetwork](#): > > i think you are right sir. So you agree that you and your boss were completly wrong, and the plane will indeed fly due to the wheels being FREE ROTATING MASS not affecting the acceleration of the plane? ---
**Author:** ![Bacon](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/bacon/32/7230_2.png) [@Bacon](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Bacon)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 11:04am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/i-have-an-experiment-for-anyone-who-didnt-think-the-plane-will-take-off/8217/169 "2006-04-07T11:04:49Z")
> [@Tevenor](#): > > If we are talking about the avi file Fuzzy posted, then the only reason the plane “took off” was because the forward motion of the plane overcame the speed of the “runway” + enough speed to create the air speed necessary over the wings to create enough lift to overcome gravity. It’s still a flawed experement and does not prove the original hypothesis. Would you be satisified if the runway was moving at 1000 inches/s instead, it’s already going 33% faster than the plane can even go. Otherwise how is it flawed. -The plane is on a “conveyor” -Thrust is applied to the plane -It’s obvious the wheels are preventing the plane from moving back at full speed immediatly it takes time -The wheels are free-rotating mass just like on a normal plane -When thrust is applied it moves forward. How does it not prove it, it’s the same basic concepts? ---
**Author:** ![Tevenor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8baadc/32.png) [@Tevenor](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Tevenor)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 11:07am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/i-have-an-experiment-for-anyone-who-didnt-think-the-plane-will-take-off/8217/170 "2006-04-07T11:07:54Z")
> [@FuzzyFish](#): > > Would you be satisified if the runway was moving at 1000 inches/s instead, it’s already going 33% faster than the plane can even go. Otherwise how is it flawed. > > -The plane is on a “conveyor” > -Thrust is applied to the plane > -It’s obvious the wheels are preventing the plane from moving back at full speed immediatly it takes time > -The wheels are free-rotating mass just like on a normal plane > -When thrust is applied it moves forward. > > How in the hell does it not prove it? And if I apply an equal “force” of the coneyor accelerating that matches the plane’s force, then it won’t go anywhere. Your example proves one interpretion which is the real issue here. Same goes for Jordan’s example of angling the treadmill. If as gravity pulls the matchbox car towards the ground, I accelerate the treadmill to match, the matchbox car will stay stationary relative to the location on the threadmill. If the conveyor has no ability to impart a force to counter act the thrust, then your example is not flawed. But if you interpret the original quesiton to mean the conveyor could match the force actions of the plane, then its flawed. Simple enough for you? ---
**Author:** ![LAFENGAS](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/lafengas/32/7573_2.png) [@LAFENGAS](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/LAFENGAS)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 11:08am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/i-have-an-experiment-for-anyone-who-didnt-think-the-plane-will-take-off/8217/171 "2006-04-07T11:08:50Z")
> [@LAFENGAS](#): > > ATTN: WETWORK > > Please, please…not to make fun of you…but take a pic at work…holding a penny. Otherwise I will never be able to hold your posts valid. > > The way you word things doesn’t seem right, i don’t feel like i’m talking to another engineer. > > I’m sorry, but the way you talk/type, you don’t seem like a very technical person. :word: > [@Tevenor](#): > > Simple enough for you? CAN A PLANE TAKE OFF ON A FRICTIONLESS SURFACE? ---
**Author:** ![tpgsr](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/tpgsr/32/7374_2.png) [@tpgsr](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/tpgsr)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 11:09am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/i-have-an-experiment-for-anyone-who-didnt-think-the-plane-will-take-off/8217/172 "2006-04-07T11:09:16Z")
is it bad that i am forming negative opinions of people based on this stupid thread ---
**Author:** ![Bacon](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/bacon/32/7230_2.png) [@Bacon](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Bacon)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 11:13am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/i-have-an-experiment-for-anyone-who-didnt-think-the-plane-will-take-off/8217/173 "2006-04-07T11:13:00Z")
> [@Tevenor](#): > > And if I apply an equal “force” of the coneyor accelerating that matches the plane’s force, then it won’t go anywhere. Your example proves one interpretion which is the real issue here. > > Same goes for Jordan’s example of angling the treadmill. If as gravity pulls the matchbox car towards the ground, I accelerate the treadmill to match, the matchbox car will stay stationary relative to the location on the threadmill. > > If the conveyor has no ability to impart a force to counter act the thrust, then your example is not flawed. But if you interpret the original quesiton to mean the conveyor could match the force actions of the plane, then its flawed. > > Simple enough for you? Not really, seeing as the question only deals with the speed of the conveyor (Speed of conveyor = speed of plane). In the example I posted the speed of the conveyor \> speed of the plane and it still can take off. You can see at the beginning that the conveyor does impart force on the plane via the wheels but even then once forward thrust is placed it still overcomes what force there is as it’s not enough to stop the plane from rolling. ---
**Author:** ![Bacon](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/bacon/32/7230_2.png) [@Bacon](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Bacon)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 11:13am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/i-have-an-experiment-for-anyone-who-didnt-think-the-plane-will-take-off/8217/174 "2006-04-07T11:13:49Z")
> [@tpgsr](#): > > is it bad that i am forming negative opinions of people based on this stupid thread You too huh. :lol: ---
**Author:** ![wetwork](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7cd45c/32.png) [@wetwork](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/wetwork)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 11:15am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/i-have-an-experiment-for-anyone-who-didnt-think-the-plane-will-take-off/8217/175 "2006-04-07T11:15:45Z")
> [@tpgsr](#): > > So you agree that you and your boss were completly wrong, and the plane will indeed fly due to the wheels being FREE ROTATING MASS not affecting the acceleration of the plane? im not saying im rongor that your wrong or anyont is wrong im saying i do not seee how you create lift. that is my big thing. if there is no lift there is no flight. and i agree with daddie i think the question that was asked is being all turned around and twisted and that we have swayed from it. everyoineis thinking about speed here in the wrong sense i think. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Stevil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/da6949/32.png) [@Dr.Stevil](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Dr.Stevil)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 11:19am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/i-have-an-experiment-for-anyone-who-didnt-think-the-plane-will-take-off/8217/176 "2006-04-07T11:19:12Z")
> [@Itagaki](#): > > No, but that equates the plane to being driven by the wheels. There is no power given to the wheels, they are simply a medium intended to reduce the friction between the plane and the ground. > > Take your example of being on a tread mill, put on roller skates (low friction medium) and strap a rocket to your back (hypothetically of course). When the rocket creates thrust, will you continue to be stationary??? I saw wiley coyote do that once ---
**Author:** ![wetwork](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7cd45c/32.png) [@wetwork](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/wetwork)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 11:20am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/i-have-an-experiment-for-anyone-who-didnt-think-the-plane-will-take-off/8217/177 "2006-04-07T11:20:37Z")
> [@tpgsr](#): > > is it bad that i am forming negative opinions of people based on this stupid thread i have a question how is this relevant to what we are talking about. apparently you did not see the warning when the thread was reopened… and who are you to form a negative opinion about people who are debating… so because i do not agree with you that makes me less then you? that makes you think less of me? who are you to make such a statement. until you can prove this theory right or until you have something of value to add instead of negativity i would appriciate you keep your two cents out. everyone here is thinking about different reasons why this will or will not work. since when is negativity based on someone elses thoughts to be brought up? how would you do in a debate? not very well if you think less of the other guy because he disagrees with you statement. ---
**Author:** ![Willybeen](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/willybeen/32/7351_2.png) [@Willybeen](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Willybeen)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 11:20am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/i-have-an-experiment-for-anyone-who-didnt-think-the-plane-will-take-off/8217/178 "2006-04-07T11:20:53Z")
if the plane isnt moving there would be no air across the wings and no lift would be generated… sorry… i still think it wont work… im not gonna read what people wrote… im not saying the tires need to move to give power, but the plane must have some airspeed across the wings ---
**Author:** ![Willybeen](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/willybeen/32/7351_2.png) [@Willybeen](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Willybeen)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 11:21am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/i-have-an-experiment-for-anyone-who-didnt-think-the-plane-will-take-off/8217/179 "2006-04-07T11:21:59Z")
EXACTLY WHAT IM SAYING… but worded better lol > [@Clean Baldy](#): > > Wings dont provide the thrust. They only create lift with air movement over them. A jet engine, on the other hand… creates a reaction, which in effect creates an equal and opposite reaction in the opposite direction. Wings just sit there. They are shaped so that the air movement creates a lower pressure on one side, so that with enough air SPEED going THROUGH them, the want to go up, because the pressure downwards is now lesser, hence, why a plane can fly. > > You have to be moving, or you’re not gonna go anywhere. And by movement, I mean airflow, not just the tires spinning so that the speedometer on the plane says “100 MPH” > > This is the most rediculous post EVER to happen on the internet. You people dont understand aerodynamics and aeronautical engineering very well, nor the basic principals of physics very well. Geez! LOL > > The only thing that diagram is showing is that the wheels are going to be spinning faster and faster. Go Dyno Queen airplane! YAY! ---
**Author:** ![9ONA3OOZX](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/9ona3oozx/32/7242_2.png) [@9ONA3OOZX](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/9ONA3OOZX)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 11:23am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/i-have-an-experiment-for-anyone-who-didnt-think-the-plane-will-take-off/8217/180 "2006-04-07T11:23:07Z")
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