# no casino for Buffalo..... **URL:** \ **Category:** NYSpeed Off Topic\ **Created:** [July 8, 2008, 12:38pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/no-casino-for-buffalo/51202 "2008-07-08T12:38:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![dozr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/41988e/32.png) [@dozr](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/dozr)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2008, 11:33am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/no-casino-for-buffalo/51202/101 "2008-07-09T11:33:16Z")
> [@Nikuk](#): > > tom - what are the realistic annual expenses faced by the city if the casino is built? > > I assume that you know, based on it being one of your main points. You are obviously missing my main point. It is the money that is sucked out of the community, not the money that will be spent by the city, although I do believe the city is responsible for the road/sidewalk infrastructure and maintenance, not to mention the increase in social services. Based on my rough numbers that I have gotten from studies and reports from the seneca nation, as well as publications such as business first, I see the Casino giving back up to $80 million of the $400,000,000+ it should product in revenues. ($70 million in salaries, and 7 million max in the single digit percentage of slot revenues) This leaves a rough $320 million pulled out of our community per year. Obviously there are other factors, but the harsh reality is that this project would not exist if it wasn’t a ridiculously unfair deal in favor of the seneca nation. ---
**Author:** ![JayS](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/jays/32/15375_2.png) [@JayS](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/JayS)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2008, 11:50am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/no-casino-for-buffalo/51202/102 "2008-07-09T11:50:55Z")
How much did the Sabres give back from their ticket sales? How much does the Chop House give back for that 32 oz ribeye? The casino is just another business where people can spend money. You act like the money spent at the casino is being taken from the people of WNY without their consent, like a tax. They’re choosing to go there and spend this money on entertainment and dining. You’re so concerned about the casino’s revenue being tax free. When the Sabres sell 30 million in tickets they only contribute 2.6 million in sales tax. Great example of the numbers: > **[Harry B. Bronson - Assembly District 138 | New York State Assembly](https://assembly.state.ny.us/mem/?ad=138&sh=story&story=24976)** > > News and Information from the New York State Assembly > Assemblywoman Francine DelMonte (D-Lewiston) announced the Seneca Nation of Indians will make a $135.6 million payment to New York State today. The payment includes revenue for 2006 and the first half of 2007. Bi-annual payments are now required under the terms of the compact. Show me another business contributing that kind of money, sales tax or otherwise, to the community. You’d have to do 1.4 billion in taxable sales to get that amount in sales tax. ---
**Author:** ![Nikuk](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/nikuk/32/7254_2.png) [@Nikuk](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Nikuk)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2008, 12:02pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/no-casino-for-buffalo/51202/103 "2008-07-09T12:02:49Z")
> [@dozr](#): > > You are obviously missing my main point. It is the money that is sucked out of the community, not the money that will be spent by the city, although I do believe the city is responsible for the road/sidewalk infrastructure and maintenance, not to mention the increase in social services. > > Based on my rough numbers that I have gotten from studies and reports from the seneca nation, as well as publications such as business first, I see the Casino giving back up to $80 million of the $400,000,000+ it should product in revenues. ($70 million in salaries, and 7 million max in the single digit percentage of slot revenues) > > This leaves a rough $320 million pulled out of our community per year. Obviously there are other factors, but the harsh reality is that this project would not exist if it wasn’t a ridiculously unfair deal in favor of the seneca nation. I’m not missing your point. I wan’t to know the basis for one of your main points in regards to how much the casino will pull out of the community. Do you know the numbers or not? ---
**Author:** ![Fry](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/fry/32/7284_2.png) [@Fry](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Fry)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2008, 12:04pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/no-casino-for-buffalo/51202/104 "2008-07-09T12:04:25Z")
lol In God we trust… ---
**Author:** ![Nikuk](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/nikuk/32/7254_2.png) [@Nikuk](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Nikuk)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2008, 12:06pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/no-casino-for-buffalo/51202/105 "2008-07-09T12:06:08Z")
> [@Nikuk](#): > > I’m not missing your point. I wan’t to know the basis for one of your main points in regards to how much the casino will pull out of the community. > > Do you know the numbers or not? And i am specifically speaking to any outlay by the City of Buffalo and / or Erie County services. Road maintenance Increase in police presence Street cleanup crew Road improvements Infrastructure supply services (water, electric, etc) that the public will foot the bill for. IIRC when the HSBC was built, these public expenses were well publicized. So, again, I assume that you know what they would be for the proposed casino grounds. ---
**Author:** ![Bigairskier1580](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/bigairskier1580/32/7612_2.png) [@Bigairskier1580](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Bigairskier1580)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2008, 12:49pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/no-casino-for-buffalo/51202/106 "2008-07-09T12:49:06Z")
> [@Pass McGrass](#): > > Read this again > > I bet that if the casino gets built, we will be seeing a lot more vacant buildings in the nearby area. Any historical proof of a casino running other businesses out of town? I don’t see that happening. As is, people are just driving further to go to casinos. If anything, I’d have to believe more businesses could flourish as those same people skip going to Niagara Falls, or Allegheny and end up downtown. ---
**Author:** ![Blue\_Eyed\_Devil](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/blue_eyed_devil/32/7292_2.png) [@Blue\_Eyed\_Devil](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Blue_Eyed_Devil)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2008, 12:53pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/no-casino-for-buffalo/51202/107 "2008-07-09T12:53:56Z")
I was going to open a pawn shop down there.:gotme: ---
**Author:** ![LZ1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@LZ1](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/LZ1)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2008, 1:00pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/no-casino-for-buffalo/51202/108 "2008-07-09T13:00:35Z")
> [@Pass McGrass](#): > > Read this again > > I bet that if the casino gets built, we will be seeing a lot more vacant buildings in the nearby area. More vacant buildings??? You realize its Canal project(Brand new) -\> Arena(not going anywhere) -\> New apartments(brand new) -\> Parking lot -\> Casino -\> Projects Does this mean there will be empty projects? because thats not a bad thing… ---
**Author:** ![Joe](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/joe/32/7219_2.png) [@Joe](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Joe)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2008, 1:02pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/no-casino-for-buffalo/51202/109 "2008-07-09T13:02:31Z")
hmm, i wouldnt be totally opposed to playing some dice on my lunch. this could be useful. ---
**Author:** ![BuickGN](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/buickgn/32/7200_2.png) [@BuickGN](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/BuickGN)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2008, 1:08pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/no-casino-for-buffalo/51202/110 "2008-07-09T13:08:53Z")
> [@LZ](#): > > More vacant buildings??? You realize its Canal project(Brand new) -\> Arena(not going anywhere) -\> New apartments(brand new) -\> Parking lot -\> Casino -\> Projects > > Does this mean there will be empty projects? because thats not a bad thing… God that would be the best, just demo all the projects!!! ---
**Author:** ![dozr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/41988e/32.png) [@dozr](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/dozr)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2008, 1:51pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/no-casino-for-buffalo/51202/111 "2008-07-09T13:51:09Z")
> [@JayS](#): > > How much did the Sabres give back from their ticket sales? How much does the Chop House give back for that 32 oz ribeye? The casino is just another business where people can spend money. You act like the money spent at the casino is being taken from the people of WNY without their consent, like a tax. They’re choosing to go there and spend this money on entertainment and dining. > > You’re so concerned about the casino’s revenue being tax free. When the Sabres sell 30 million in tickets they only contribute 2.6 million in sales tax. > > Great example of the numbers: > [Harry B. Bronson - Assembly District 138 | New York State Assembly](http://assembly.state.ny.us/mem/?ad=138&sh=story&story=24976) > > Show me another business contributing that kind of money, sales tax or otherwise, to the community. You’d have to do 1.4 billion in taxable sales to get that amount in sales tax. Its not just sales tax, its a load of other taxes, including property, bed, etc. And its not just the taxes, it’s the unfair advantage this gives them over every single other business in Buffalo… * * * The sabres also don’t keep patrons from surrounding businesses, they are the catalyst that allows surrounding businesses to exist. This is a terrible example. ---
**Author:** ![dozr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/41988e/32.png) [@dozr](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/dozr)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2008, 1:52pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/no-casino-for-buffalo/51202/112 "2008-07-09T13:52:35Z")
> [@JayS](#): > > How much did the Sabres give back from their ticket sales? How much does the Chop House give back for that 32 oz ribeye? The casino is just another business where people can spend money. You act like the money spent at the casino is being taken from the people of WNY without their consent, like a tax. They’re choosing to go there and spend this money on entertainment and dining. > > You’re so concerned about the casino’s revenue being tax free. When the Sabres sell 30 million in tickets they only contribute 2.6 million in sales tax. > > Great example of the numbers: > [Harry B. Bronson - Assembly District 138 | New York State Assembly](http://assembly.state.ny.us/mem/?ad=138&sh=story&story=24976) > > Show me another business contributing that kind of money, sales tax or otherwise, to the community. You’d have to do 1.4 billion in taxable sales to get that amount in sales tax. Its not just sales tax, its a load of other taxes, including property, bed, etc. And its not just the taxes, it’s the unfair advantage this gives them over every single other business in Buffalo… * * * The sabres also don’t keep patrons from surrounding businesses, they are the catalyst that allows surrounding businesses to exist. This is a terrible example. Not to mention the food vendors and just about every service inside the arena is outsourced to other area businesses like Delaware North. ---
**Author:** ![dozr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/41988e/32.png) [@dozr](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/dozr)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2008, 1:57pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/no-casino-for-buffalo/51202/113 "2008-07-09T13:57:04Z")
> [@Nikuk](#): > > And i am specifically speaking to any outlay by the City of Buffalo and / or Erie County services. > > Road maintenance > Increase in police presence > Street cleanup crew > Road improvements > Infrastructure supply services (water, electric, etc) that the public will foot the bill for. > > IIRC when the HSBC was built, these public expenses were well publicized. So, again, I assume that you know what they would be for the proposed casino grounds. No, you were mistaken in thinking that this was one of my MAIN points. And I do not know the number. ---
**Author:** ![JayS](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/jays/32/15375_2.png) [@JayS](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/JayS)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2008, 2:03pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/no-casino-for-buffalo/51202/114 "2008-07-09T14:03:15Z")
So if I drop $200 to go see a Sabres game that money didn’t come at the expense of some other entertainment option in Buffalo? The wife and I are doing pretty well but we don’t have an unlimited entertainment budget, especially with cost of living going up faster than salaries. Chances are if I drop $200 on Sabres tickets I’m not also going to hit up the Chop House, or a Bills game that week. Yes, the casino is a one stop shop, and they have an advantage of being tax free. Their prices are still similar though. I’m a horrible example because I have no interest at all in giving my money away at a casino, but my co-worker who lives in the Falls goes at least once a month. Sometimes he does eat there was well, but he still goes out to other restaurants as well. It’s not like people are going to say “I can eat tax free at the casino, so that will be the only place I ever eat again”. ---
**Author:** ![Nikuk](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/nikuk/32/7254_2.png) [@Nikuk](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Nikuk)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2008, 2:31pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/no-casino-for-buffalo/51202/115 "2008-07-09T14:31:55Z")
As i read this: > [@dozr](#): > > Est 2,000 jobs > > Est Avg Salary = $34000 > > $68,000,000 Pumped into economy through new jobs, minus whatever jobs a large percentage of people leave to come work here. > > Estimated revenues for $12 mos (I feel this is probably conservative) $400,000,000 > > Estimated payment to City/County (if they can decide who gets it) $7,000,000 max. (single digit percentage of slots ONLY) > > The casino will NOT pay property tax, bed tax, sales tax, or any local or state taxes. > > **The city of Buffalo has to pay for all of the infrastructure upgrades and maintenance (roads, plowing, salt) as well.** > > By my admittedly shitty calculations… > > THIS IS A LOUSY FUCKING DEAL. > > And note to those who have no idea how casinos work: They have all amenities inside the casino grounds, hotels, restaurants, shopping, entertainment, gambling, snacks, gift shops, bars, etc. Not to mention parking, lack of clocks or windows. They are designed top to bottom to keep everyone inside spending money. > > WHY WOULD ANYONE START A BUSINESS NEXT TO A CASINO in a shithole area? > > Niagara Falls USA still sucks, (Crime is actually on the rise around the casino), most businesses around it failed within 6mos to a year, etc etc. > > Casinos are a classic last ditch attempt at being the saving grace for cities with poor economies, and guess what - it doesnt work! > > With that said - I really don’t care what happens, I just can’t believe noone is pissed off about the shitty deal we negotiated. I saw infrastructure as A PART OF your main point. > [@dozr](#): > > No, you were mistaken in thinking that this was one of my MAIN points. > > And I do not know the number. Ok. How about this then: How many like busninesses surround the casino site? With respect to hotels, restaurants, and showplaces or active theatres? ---
**Author:** ![JayS](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/jays/32/15375_2.png) [@JayS](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/JayS)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2008, 2:53pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/no-casino-for-buffalo/51202/116 "2008-07-09T14:53:13Z")
^ Do grain elevators count as businesses? ---
**Author:** ![Nikuk](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/nikuk/32/7254_2.png) [@Nikuk](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Nikuk)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2008, 3:01pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/no-casino-for-buffalo/51202/117 "2008-07-09T15:01:25Z")
I quit. ---
**Author:** ![Fry](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/fry/32/7284_2.png) [@Fry](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Fry)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2008, 3:10pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/no-casino-for-buffalo/51202/118 "2008-07-09T15:10:39Z")
Whole lot of speculation up in hurrr. Time will tell. We’re getting a Casino. We’ll see what happens. I’m guessing something along the lines of “nothing much at all.” Oh well, should be a cool looking building. As long as it doesn’t disturb the flight path of the north american mosquito. ---
**Author:** ![SVT3945](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/svt3945/32/7409_2.png) [@SVT3945](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/SVT3945)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2008, 4:45pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/no-casino-for-buffalo/51202/119 "2008-07-09T16:45:46Z")
The law was misinterpreted by the Seneca, the ruling will not be over turned unless they can change the law. bye bye casino ---
**Author:** ![JayS](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/jays/32/15375_2.png) [@JayS](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/JayS)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2008, 5:11pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/no-casino-for-buffalo/51202/120 "2008-07-09T17:11:28Z")
> [@SVT3945](#): > > The law was misinterpreted by the Seneca, the ruling will not be over turned unless they can change the law. > > bye bye casino :lol: And your years as an attorney have spoken. ![http://forums.snapstream.com/vb/images/smilies/bowdown.gif](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/uploads/speedlife/original/3X/1/3/13a9c9241ebf87182368380e6c1a50d8c710be49.gif) \<---- Going to feel like an ass if he really is an attorney. [Previous page](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/no-casino-for-buffalo/51202.md?page=5) [Next page](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/no-casino-for-buffalo/51202.md?page=7)