# Obamacares Fate, Votes in Today **URL:** \ **Category:** Shift518 Off Topic\ **Created:** [June 28, 2012, 7:15am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/obamacares-fate-votes-in-today/264228 "2012-06-28T07:15:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Cossey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Cossey](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Cossey)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2012, 10:10pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/obamacares-fate-votes-in-today/264228/201 "2012-07-16T22:10:39Z")
> [@SWERVE MOTORSPORTS: Garage Sale](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/swerve-motorsports-garage-sale/49872/13): > > Cossey don’t you go to Suny Albany? No? I fail to see where I go to school has anything to do with this? ---
**Author:** ![GD3Skier](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/gd3skier/32/6400_2.png) [@GD3Skier](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/GD3Skier)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 4:15am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/obamacares-fate-votes-in-today/264228/202 "2012-07-17T04:15:50Z")
> [@Heading to lafayette la, for a job...](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/heading-to-lafayette-la-for-a-job/50163/7): > > You make me laugh sometimes, thank you for that. > > I thought the 99% types were down at this occupy movement bullshit? The ones standing around all day, wanting free college tuition and a bunch of other shit? They should occupy a job fair. Totally random but I kind of find it comical how in other countries when they revolt people by the thousands swarm the streets and really put on a show to get things done. In the US we go camping and complain about taxes while occupying state land paid for by taxes. Where did our countries balls go? ---
**Author:** ![Murrdog9000](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/murrdog9000/32/6391_2.png) [@Murrdog9000](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Murrdog9000)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 4:35am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/obamacares-fate-votes-in-today/264228/203 "2012-07-17T04:35:11Z")
> [@Callout: Mindless or any 11sec or better cars. slight\_smile](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/callout-mindless-or-any-11sec-or-better-cars/48316/795): > > No? I fail to see where I go to school has anything to do with this? Pretty sure you went to a state school, sccc?.. just surprises me since its partially funded by tax payers. ---
**Author:** ![Cossey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Cossey](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Cossey)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 6:14am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/obamacares-fate-votes-in-today/264228/204 "2012-07-17T06:14:08Z")
> [@Your top five albums of all time?](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/your-top-five-albums-of-all-time/50165/5): > > Pretty sure you went to a state school, sccc?.. just surprises me since its partially funded by tax payers. I know how it’s funded. I also don’t know where I stated my stance on government getting involved in education, so again, it should not matter. I also went to public schools, if you’d like to further prove your non-existent point. ---
**Author:** ![Cossey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Cossey](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Cossey)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 6:15am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/obamacares-fate-votes-in-today/264228/205 "2012-07-17T06:15:45Z")
> [@FS: XBOX360 Games](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/fs-xbox360-games/48428/43): > > Totally random but I kind of find it comical how in other countries when they revolt people by the thousands swarm the streets and really put on a show to get things done. In the US we go camping and complain about taxes while occupying state land paid for by taxes. Where did our countries balls go? Our country’s balls seem to have been wallowing away since the '60s. ---
**Author:** ![Dread](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/dread/32/6544_2.png) [@Dread](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Dread)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 8:21am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/obamacares-fate-votes-in-today/264228/206 "2012-07-17T08:21:01Z")
> [@The "Oil Prices" thread.](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/the-oil-prices-thread/44739/567): > > Video from that same site, makes me sick to my stomach > > [http://www.ijreview.com/2012/07/10623-obama-if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that/](http://www.ijreview.com/2012/07/10623-obama-if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that/) Wow… theres truly no words for that… ---
**Author:** ![Upstate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/b3f665/32.png) [@Upstate](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Upstate)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 12:01pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/obamacares-fate-votes-in-today/264228/207 "2012-07-17T12:01:56Z")
> [@WTB: reliable four door DD](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/wtb-reliable-four-door-dd/50147/12): > > Just to get this straight. > > Those that work typically have health insurance. (With exceptions of retired, business owners etc). The majority does. > > Those that don’t come use the hospitals for free when emergencies happen and are a huge cost to the infrastructure and I’m sure the tax payers. > > Now that those that don’t work have to purchase something which workers don’t, the working class is outraged? Why? You want to protect those that don’t work? Wrong again. Those that do not work will not be required to buy health insurance because since they don’t work they’re likely already under the income threshold that allows them to receive Medicaid. As state’s struggle to meet enrollment requirements in the future though, look for many to start raising that income level so as to bring more people onto the government rolls. ---
**Author:** ![Vovchandr](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/vovchandr/32/6275_2.png) [@Vovchandr](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Vovchandr)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 2:36pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/obamacares-fate-votes-in-today/264228/208 "2012-07-17T14:36:12Z")
> [@Gas mileage thread](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/gas-mileage-thread/50164/36): > > Wrong again. Those that do not work will not be required to buy health insurance because since they don’t work they’re likely already under the income threshold that allows them to receive Medicaid. As state’s struggle to meet enrollment requirements in the future though, look for many to start raising that income level so as to bring more people onto the government rolls. So if they are already on the governments tit according to you and the working class already has insurance it seems like a non issue besides governmental taxation on insurance companies and other tax increase provisions. :dunno ---
**Author:** ![sbardy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@sbardy](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/sbardy)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 4:19pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/obamacares-fate-votes-in-today/264228/209 "2012-07-17T16:19:00Z")
> [@WTB: reliable four door DD](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/wtb-reliable-four-door-dd/50147/12): > > Just to get this straight. > > Those that work typically have health insurance. (With exceptions of retired, business owners etc). The majority does. > > Those that don’t come use the hospitals for free when emergencies happen and are a huge cost to the infrastructure and I’m sure the tax payers. > > Now that those that don’t work have to purchase something which workers don’t, the working class is outraged? Why? You want to protect those that don’t work? > > Like I’ve said before, if you want to be outraged about something why not Social Security which we ALL have to pay even though the majority of us will never see a dollar of it when the system goes bankrupt. > > I’m not for Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act exactly I could do without, but I’m outraged by the ignorant attacks on it with a clearly biased view in the name alone. People hate on an major plan all of a sudden, which has been in action for a few years already without knowing the entire thing or being outraged by the federally mandated tax that has been around for over 70 years. > > Obama care and Romney care names are nicely packaged by the people for the simpletons who find it hard to be outraged by the real name. Same as the infamous coining of the “Death Tax”. You’re sold on a nicely packaged name which doesn’t explain anything but has a name of the person you hate in it, to make it easy to hate and associate. > > Unless you are outraged by all forms of Federal Mandates upon us such as Medicare and Social Security among the few, you’re an ignorant fool who just got sold a political message because of the pretty packaging. Not to mention other Federal facilities such as the FED. > > Edit: If you outraged and active against all of them, kudos to you on consistency. So true, not to be a dick but if you can’t understand what vlads saying your partially retarded. For once I agree with vlad. Thought this day would never come. :bowdown ---
**Author:** ![Vovchandr](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/vovchandr/32/6275_2.png) [@Vovchandr](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Vovchandr)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 4:20pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/obamacares-fate-votes-in-today/264228/210 "2012-07-17T16:20:56Z")
> [@OH hi, i upgraded your life (Zonda meet)](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/oh-hi-i-upgraded-your-life-zonda-meet/50128/30): > > So true, not to be a dick but if you can’t understand what vlads saying your partially retarded. > > For once I agree with vlad. Thought this day would never come. > :bowdown :wow I’ll write this instance off as a glitch in the Matrix :eek3 ---
**Author:** ![Murrdog9000](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/murrdog9000/32/6391_2.png) [@Murrdog9000](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Murrdog9000)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 4:25pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/obamacares-fate-votes-in-today/264228/211 "2012-07-17T16:25:31Z")
> [@Gas mileage thread](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/gas-mileage-thread/50164/26): > > I know how it’s funded. I also don’t know where I stated my stance on government getting involved in education, so again, it should not matter. > I also went to public schools, if you’d like to further prove your non-existent point. I’m just surprised you wouldn’t go straight to a private school since your so passionate about people not getting there college education paid for by the government. Public schools don’t count since you HAVE to go to school till your 16, college is not mandatory. ---
**Author:** ![Cossey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Cossey](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Cossey)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 7:19pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/obamacares-fate-votes-in-today/264228/212 "2012-07-17T19:19:00Z")
> [@OFFICIAL: 2008 ELECTION THREAD](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/official-2008-election-thread/41192/908): > > I’m just surprised you wouldn’t go straight to a private school since your so passionate about people not getting there college education paid for by the government. Public schools don’t count since you HAVE to go to school till your 16, college is not mandatory. I have no problem with people’s educations getting paid for… I have a problem with people demanding their education get paid for while they sit and protest about bullshit when they could be attempting to get a job to pay for it themselves like most college kids. HUGE difference, and I expected more out of you, especially considering how I specifically stated: > I thought the 99% types were down at this **occupy movement** bullshit? **The ones standing around all day, wanting free college tuition and a bunch of other shit?** They should occupy a job fair. ---
**Author:** ![Upstate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/b3f665/32.png) [@Upstate](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Upstate)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 7:54pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/obamacares-fate-votes-in-today/264228/213 "2012-07-17T19:54:30Z")
> [@FS: 1997 Nissan 200sx - winter beater $500!](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/fs-1997-nissan-200sx-winter-beater-500/50118/10): > > So if they are already on the governments tit according to you and the working class already has insurance it seems like a non issue besides governmental taxation on insurance companies and other tax increase provisions. :dunno The issue is now you have small businesses that provide insurance to their employees at an average cost of $6,000 per year dropping that coverage because the penalty is $2,000. You’re incentivizing businesses to not offer something because the government is just going to pick up the slack. This is what we call a slippery slope. ---
**Author:** ![Vovchandr](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/vovchandr/32/6275_2.png) [@Vovchandr](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Vovchandr)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 8:15pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/obamacares-fate-votes-in-today/264228/214 "2012-07-17T20:15:17Z")
> [@Your top five albums of all time?](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/your-top-five-albums-of-all-time/50165/34): > > The issue is now you have small businesses that provide insurance to their employees at an average cost of $6,000 per year dropping that coverage because the penalty is $2,000. You’re incentivizing businesses to not offer something because the government is just going to pick up the slack. This is what we call a slippery slope. You’ve over estimating how many small business that may offer coverage now will drop it, they still have to offer incentives to potential employees. And in hindsight if that is the case, isn’t this helping “job creators” by offering a relief of sorts? ---
**Author:** ![Cossey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Cossey](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Cossey)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 8:24pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/obamacares-fate-votes-in-today/264228/215 "2012-07-17T20:24:00Z")
> [@Your top five albums of all time?](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/your-top-five-albums-of-all-time/50165/34): > > The issue is now you have small businesses that provide insurance to their employees at an average cost of $6,000 per year dropping that coverage because the penalty is $2,000. You’re incentivizing businesses to not offer something because the government is just going to pick up the slack. This is what we call a slippery slope. I didn’t want to jump in on this but here’s the thing: The company does not NEED to give the employees health insurance right now. They can strip the benefits, and face ZERO penalty. So you’re saying they have incentives to take away the employee’s insurance when there is a $2000/employee penalty? ---
**Author:** ![Upstate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/b3f665/32.png) [@Upstate](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Upstate)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 12:18pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/obamacares-fate-votes-in-today/264228/216 "2012-07-18T12:18:50Z")
> [@Mark's SRT re-do -- no traction at all slight\_smile page 5](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/marks-srt-re-do-no-traction-at-all-page-5/49901/70): > > I didn’t want to jump in on this but here’s the thing: > > The company does not NEED to give the employees health insurance right now. They can strip the benefits, and face ZERO penalty. > > So you’re saying they have incentives to take away the employee’s insurance when there is a $2000/employee penalty? Once this law takes full effect in 2015, it will be more cost effective for small businesses to not offer health insurance to their employees and pay the $2,000 fine instead, yes. I rep a number of pharmaceutical companies, so coverage is obviously a big deal to them, and I was at a PhRMA session in DC two years ago after passage of the ACA and they estimate that employer-sponsored insurance coverage will drop from 52% now to 39% by 2020, after everything is in effect. ---
**Author:** ![KrazyKid](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/krazykid/32/6371_2.png) [@KrazyKid](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/KrazyKid)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 12:33pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/obamacares-fate-votes-in-today/264228/217 "2012-07-18T12:33:36Z")
Cossey is right NOW, but upstate and vlad will be right come 2015. Business owners with employees are obligated to pay for social security tax, unemployment tax and others. NOT health, vision, dental, etc. So now the owner has that choice to spend $6K a year to offer benifits, or not to. Want better workers, to produce better products, chances are you need to offer benifits. Come 2015 Vlad and Upstate are right. Now the owners have to pay ATLEAST $2000 per employee. So Company A with 10 employees at a part time coffee shop that has employees who dont need coverage if it was offered by the shop has to for over $20K a year to the gov now. But Company B with 1000 employees that spend $6K a person on benifits ($600K total) now can say go fuck yourself and get COBRA if you want insurance to all their employees and pocket $400K a year. (an probably loose alot of employees, and have crappy product produced by pissed off employees). Once again, fucking over the little people trying to make a living in a community, and aiding the big bussiness tycoons. Go fuckyourself once again government. This also brings up a good point. What if the employee has insurance under their spouse? Does the Employeer still face a penalty? ---
**Author:** ![Cossey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Cossey](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Cossey)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 1:06pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/obamacares-fate-votes-in-today/264228/218 "2012-07-18T13:06:49Z")
> [@Your top five albums of all time?](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/your-top-five-albums-of-all-time/50165/45): > > Once this law takes full effect in 2015, it will be more cost effective for small businesses to not offer health insurance to their employees and pay the $2,000 fine instead, yes. I rep a number of pharmaceutical companies, so coverage is obviously a big deal to them, and I was at a PhRMA session in DC two years ago after passage of the ACA and they estimate that employer-sponsored insurance coverage will drop from 52% now to 39% by 2020, after everything is in effect. > [@So what do the cooool people wear? Jacket/Helmet](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/so-what-do-the-cooool-people-wear-jacket-helmet/50186/2): > > Cossey is right NOW, but upstate and vlad will be right come 2015. > > Business owners with employees are obligated to pay for social security tax, unemployment tax and others. NOT health, vision, dental, etc. So now the owner has that choice to spend $6K a year to offer benifits, or not to. Want better workers, to produce better products, chances are you need to offer benifits. > > Come 2015 Vlad and Upstate are right. Now the owners have to pay ATLEAST $2000 per employee. So Company A with 10 employees at a part time coffee shop that has employees who dont need coverage if it was offered by the shop has to for over $20K a year to the gov now. But Company B with 1000 employees that spend $6K a person on benifits ($600K total) now can say go fuck yourself and get COBRA if you want insurance to all their employees and pocket $400K a year. (an probably loose alot of employees, and have crappy product produced by pissed off employees). > > Once again, fucking over the little people trying to make a living in a community, and aiding the big bussiness tycoons. Go fuckyourself once again government. > > This also brings up a good point. What if the employee has insurance under their spouse? Does the Employeer still face a penalty? So again, I state that the companies give their employees benefits right now, pay what you estimate to be $6k/employee. If they take their benefits away right now will face a fine of $0… If they take their benefits away in the future, will face a $2,000 penalty per employee. So right now they can either pay $6k, or pay nothing, and they still CHOOSE to pay the $6k. But somehow you feel that they’ll be more apt to pay the $2k penalty under Obamacare, than paying $0 now? In other words: Right now, it’s more cost effective for them to pay $0 over the $6,000. But they choose the less cost effective route. In 2015, it’s more cost effective for them to pay $2,000 over the $6,000, but at that point they’re more likely to pay the $2,000? I can’t be the only one thinking that you’re point is completely invalid. ---
**Author:** ![Upstate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/b3f665/32.png) [@Upstate](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Upstate)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 1:30pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/obamacares-fate-votes-in-today/264228/219 "2012-07-18T13:30:06Z")
> [@Do you think diesel is worth it anymore?](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/do-you-think-diesel-is-worth-it-anymore/50188/2): > > So again, I state that the companies give their employees benefits right now, pay what you estimate to be $6k/employee. If they take their benefits away right now will face a fine of $0… If they take their benefits away in the future, will face a $2,000 penalty per employee. So right now they can either pay $6k, or pay nothing, and they still CHOOSE to pay the $6k. But somehow you feel that they’ll be more apt to pay the $2k penalty under Obamacare, than paying $0 now? > > In other words: > Right now, it’s more cost effective for them to pay $0 over the $6,000. But they choose the less cost effective route. > In 2015, it’s more cost effective for them to pay $2,000 over the $6,000, but at that point they’re more likely to pay the $2,000? > > I can’t be the only one thinking that you’re point is completely invalid. You’re not understanding this correctly though, let me rephrase. I own a business and I have 30 employees who I offer insurance to now. The reason I offer them insurance is because I want my workforce to be healthy and happy. It costs me on average $10,000 per employee for this benefit. Now suddenly everyone gets insurance regardless of whether I offer it or not, so there’s no need for me to do so any longer. It is easier and cheaper for me to simply pay the fine now rather than provide insurance because I know that my workers are still going to be covered. Businesses provide insurance now because it’s the right thing to do and a healthy workforce is a productive one. But if someone can get similar coverage from an exchange and it saves the business owner a lot of money, they are very likely to do that. ---
**Author:** ![Upstate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/b3f665/32.png) [@Upstate](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Upstate)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 1:33pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/obamacares-fate-votes-in-today/264228/220 "2012-07-18T13:33:50Z")
I think I need to address and clarify the exchanges here as well. The state’s are required under ACA to setup an insurance exchange where people without coverage can go and purchase low cost insurance. Businesses can choose to not offer health insurance to their employees and instead pay them $4,000, which they can then go and use to buy insurance on an exchange. This is what I mean by it being more cost effective to not offer it in the future, I should have explained that better. Hopefully this makes more sense now. [Previous page](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/obamacares-fate-votes-in-today/264228.md?page=10) [Next page](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/obamacares-fate-votes-in-today/264228.md?page=12)