# Proper way to drive a manual... **URL:** \ **Category:** NYSpeed Automotive\ **Created:** [May 27, 2009, 1:45pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/proper-way-to-drive-a-manual/68370 "2009-05-27T13:45:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Fry](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/fry/32/7284_2.png) [@Fry](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Fry)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 10:01pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/proper-way-to-drive-a-manual/68370/101 "2009-05-27T22:01:42Z")
Well you bickering fucks have probably managed to thoroughly confuse the original poster. Hopefully he stopped reading after the first few responses. Can we all agree that in a normal (not modded) car, using engine braking to slow down (without doing stupid shit like dropping a gear or two and sidestepping the clutch) will have do measurable/noticable damage to the car? It all goes back to as a general rule, if it feels smooth it’s probably OK. Besides: SLOW IS SMOOTH. SMOOTH IS FAST. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![system](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/uploads/speedlife/original/2X/b/b7170c8eddc0b95ece6b88172b2f416a08489a45.png) [@system](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/system)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 10:29pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/proper-way-to-drive-a-manual/68370/102 "2009-05-27T22:29:26Z")
Holy shit… I would have thought this board could drive. I will add an obvious fact I probably skipped over in this thread: Never Down shift into 1st gear. Honestly, just get someone to show it to you if you don’t get it or are having trouble. And don’t be scared about burning out the clutch, they are designed to be able to take a beating from everyday driving. It’ll be hard for you to get it this shit over reading, its a skill that is learned through practice. I still throw my 88 year old gramps the keys and he’ll drive anything flawlessly. Once you have this skill, you’ll have it for life. But do try to develop good habits. Bad habits are hard to break- my retarded ex rides the clutch horribly, blaming it on habit… ---
**Author:** ![neonglh](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/neonglh/32/4951_2.png) [@neonglh](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/neonglh)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 5:40am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/proper-way-to-drive-a-manual/68370/103 "2009-05-28T05:40:04Z")
> [@alpha earl](#): > > engine braking is not good for the motor plain and simple, it puts stress force on the pistons in a way they are not intended to handle No it doesn’t… ---
**Author:** ![walter](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/walter/32/7202_2.png) [@walter](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/walter)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 6:22am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/proper-way-to-drive-a-manual/68370/104 "2009-05-28T06:22:50Z")
Holy cow, there is so much fail in this thread it isn’t even funny. ---
**Author:** ![LUKE\_L](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/luke_l/32/7462_2.png) [@LUKE\_L](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/LUKE_L)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 6:52am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/proper-way-to-drive-a-manual/68370/105 "2009-05-28T06:52:58Z")
> [@Fry](#): > > It all goes back to as a general rule, if it feels smooth it’s probably OK. This is probably the best advice in this thread… > [@Bastinado](#): > > Never Down shift into 1st gear. It can be done. Instead of dismissing it all together you should clarify that you should not shift into first until you have mastered downshifting for your car. This is something I have had to adjust to with a Mid-engine car in really TIGHT turns as lift off is ultimately a bad thing (Thanks Joe :)) A better explanation would be IMO: If you want to downshift into first you should learn where your power ban is from first to second. After you know that make sure you don’t downshift at too high an RPM. If your power ban kicks in around 3200 in first and your engine drops to say 2500 when in second try to stay well below 2500 when downshifting to first. You don’t want a 4 grand drop into first while rolling 25 MPH. I usually get down to a sputter in second before I hit first. Around 1100 RPMs. ---
**Author:** ![97FormulaWS-6](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/97formulaws-6/32/7384_2.png) [@97FormulaWS-6](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/97FormulaWS-6)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 7:04am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/proper-way-to-drive-a-manual/68370/106 "2009-05-28T07:04:15Z")
Geeze this thread is crazy… Learn the basics, and learn to be as smooth as possible. Then go figure out all the other crap in here… geeze… just go out and drive you car. Clutches are cheap, and unless you pull a Skunk and do a 5-2 shift you should be fine. T-56s take a pretty good amount of abuse before you do any serious damage. ---
**Author:** ![boxxa](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/boxxa/32/5045_2.png) [@boxxa](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/boxxa)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 7:06am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/proper-way-to-drive-a-manual/68370/107 "2009-05-28T07:06:35Z")
Driving it is all feel and touch. You will eventually know whats better. Revving the engine when the clutch is 1/2 way out is bad tho any way you look at it. I personally only downshift if I am going into a turn to slow down vs hitting the brakes. At a red light I just sometimes downshift once and then thats it becuase personally a transmission repair is a lot more expensive than a brake job but I don’t think anyone has a full answer on that theory. My sunfire went 115k miles on the original clutch and transmission so I must have done something right. If you shift and your passengers hit their head on the seat in front of them or the dashboard, you are doing it wrong. ---
**Author:** ![boardjnky4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/96bed5/32.png) [@boardjnky4](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/boardjnky4)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 7:13am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/proper-way-to-drive-a-manual/68370/108 "2009-05-28T07:13:18Z")
> **[Shifting, Up, Down and Heel Toe - National Auto Sport Association](https://drivenasa.com/learn/shifting-up-down-and-heel-toe/)** > > UpshiftingUpshifting should be done smoothly. Speedshifting will shorten the gearbox life. The only time I force an upshift is in a side by side race to the next corner, for position. I will sometimes “bang a gear” in an effort to take or hold a... > [@http://www.nasaproracing.com/hpde/heelandtoe.html](#): > > The first thing to understand is the purpose of the downshift. It is not to slow the car, that is the job of the brakes. The purpose of downshifting is to have the car in the correct gear to accelerate through and out of the corner. I’ll take my advice from an established organization, and I will continue to stick with the “brakes are for decelerating, engines are for accelerating” method. It hasn’t let me down yet, and my car runs great. Here is some awesome info on upshifting, the concept here should apply to daily driving as well as spirited driving: > [@http://www.nasaproracing.com/hpde/heelandtoe.html](#): > > Upshifting should be done smoothly. Speedshifting will shorten the gearbox life. The only time I force an upshift is in a side by side race to the next corner, for position. I will sometimes “bang a gear” in an effort to take or hold a position. Listen to the in-car shifts of professional racers on TV, and they rarely bang shifts. Upshifts are done quickly and smoothly, but are not forced. If you want your gearbox to have a long, happy life, feel the gears, the changes should fall in, without being forced. I’ve been doing a good amount of research. I have not found any engineering/science based articles on engine braking though. ---
**Author:** ![walter](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/walter/32/7202_2.png) [@walter](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/walter)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 7:14am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/proper-way-to-drive-a-manual/68370/109 "2009-05-28T07:14:21Z")
:picard: ---
**Author:** ![neonglh](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/neonglh/32/4951_2.png) [@neonglh](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/neonglh)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 7:17am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/proper-way-to-drive-a-manual/68370/110 "2009-05-28T07:17:29Z")
> [@boardjnky4](#): > > [Shifting, Up, Down and Heel Toe - National Auto Sport Association](http://www.nasaproracing.com/hpde/heelandtoe.html) > > I’ll take my advice from an established organization, and I will continue to stick with the “brakes are for decelerating, engines are for accelerating” method > > Here is some awesome info on upshifting, the concept here should apply to daily driving as well as spirited driving: That makes total sense… if we are on a road course :spank: ---
**Author:** ![boardjnky4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/96bed5/32.png) [@boardjnky4](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/boardjnky4)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 7:19am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/proper-way-to-drive-a-manual/68370/111 "2009-05-28T07:19:53Z")
I don’t really think that there is anything there that is race specific, please elaborate. Why do these concepts not relate to DDing? Like I said, I haven’t found many articles with any other substantial evidence. Just a lot of forum flaming. This conversation is a popular one. I am open to listening, but nobody has provided any substantial evidence to anything, just hear-say. ---
**Author:** ![neonglh](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/neonglh/32/4951_2.png) [@neonglh](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/neonglh)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 8:12am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/proper-way-to-drive-a-manual/68370/112 "2009-05-28T08:12:32Z")
> [@boardjnky4](#): > > I don’t really think that there is anything there that is race specific, please elaborate. Why do these concepts not relate to DDing? > > Like I said, I haven’t found many articles with any other substantial evidence. Just a lot of forum flaming. This conversation is a popular one. > > I am open to listening, but nobody has provided any substantial evidence to anything, just hear-say. Because people on a road course don’t really worry about things like "being in control if a deer runs in front of you. They don’t care about gas mileage. The truth is, if you engine brake, at any time, you can hit the gas or brake to speed up or slow down, you are still in control of your car. If you are in neutral braking, and you need to speed up for something, you can’t react fast enough. As for gas mileage, if you are engine braking, your injectors are not firing, and you are saving fuel. If you are in neutral, you injectors need to go, to maintain a ~ 900 rpm idle, using fuel. That are just two things that come to mind first. There are two other things in this thread I would like to discuss too. And in no way am I flaming, or arguing, just debating with my education. The argument that the engine can get hurt from engine braking is ridiculous. Engine braking = no combustion. Normal driving, or 100x worse yet, WOT with a boosted car, will put so much more stress on the pistons and cylinder walls compared to engine braking. Engine braking is simply the pistons moving up and down with no engine load, so saying that your compression of your motor can affect how bad it is to engine brake, etc… Is just silly. Next, rev matching is better on the clutch (life of the clutch) than putting it into gear, and letting the clutch change the rpm. That is the whole point of rev matching, to safe the clutch and drivetrain from extra wear and extra drivetrain shock. And lasty, the argument that brakes are cheaper than clutches… not always true. The clutch disk is only going to wear at a noticeable rate if you are slipping it. Normal engaging / disengaging does not really wear a clutch much at all. The pressure plate and TOB could wear more, but that is why they are there, to use. I am not even going to touch some of the other rediculous statements in this thread, but yeah, that’s physics and experience talking, not just internet whoohaa. ---
**Author:** ![boardjnky4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/96bed5/32.png) [@boardjnky4](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/boardjnky4)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 8:21am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/proper-way-to-drive-a-manual/68370/113 "2009-05-28T08:21:40Z")
> [@neonglh](#): > > Because people on a road course don’t really worry about things like "being in control if a deer runs in front of you. They don’t care about gas mileage. > > The truth is, if you engine brake, at any time, you can hit the gas or brake to speed up or slow down, you are still in control of your car. If you are in neutral braking, and you need to speed up for something, you can’t react fast enough. > > My practice is almost always to downshift and brake simultaneously. I never use the engine to slowdown. I downshift AND brake. Sometimes I heel-toe it, sometimes I downshift directly before/after braking(depends on my level laziness). > > As for gas mileage, if you are engine braking, your injectors are not firing, and you are saving fuel. If you are in neutral, you injectors need to go, to maintain a ~ 900 rpm idle, using fuel. > > The injectors don’t fire AT ALL? really? I thought they were still dumping a small amount. > > That are just two things that come to mind first. There are two other things in this thread I would like to discuss too. And in no way am I flaming, or arguing, just debating with my education. The argument that the engine can get hurt from engine braking is ridiculous. Engine braking = no combustion. Normal driving, or 100x worse yet, WOT with a boosted car, will put so much more stress on the pistons and cylinder walls compared to engine braking. Engine braking is simply the pistons moving up and down with no engine load, so saying that your compression of your motor can affect how bad it is to engine brake, etc… Is just silly. > > Agreed, 100% > > I am more worried about the stress on the transmission. > > Next, rev matching is better on the clutch (life of the clutch) than putting it into gear, and letting the clutch change the rpm. That is the whole point of rev matching, to safe the clutch and drivetrain from extra wear and extra drivetrain shock. > > Agreed, downshifting without rev matching is stupid stupid stupid > > And lasty, the argument that brakes are cheaper than clutches… not always true. The clutch disk is only going to wear at a noticeable rate if you are slipping it. Normal engaging / disengaging does not really wear a clutch much at all. The pressure plate and TOB could wear more, but that is why they are there, to use. > > I am not even going to touch some of the other rediculous statements in this thread, but yeah, that’s physics and experience talking, not just internet whoohaa. Replies in red I want to find some information on what happens inside the transmission during engine braking. Is the load exerted such that it will cause harm to the transmission, or is it the same as normal driving? ---
**Author:** ![Fry](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/fry/32/7284_2.png) [@Fry](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Fry)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 8:30am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/proper-way-to-drive-a-manual/68370/114 "2009-05-28T08:30:20Z")
Reverse loading. ---
**Author:** ![boardjnky4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/96bed5/32.png) [@boardjnky4](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/boardjnky4)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 8:35am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/proper-way-to-drive-a-manual/68370/115 "2009-05-28T08:35:06Z")
is Reverse loading bad? I’m no mechanical engineer, I failed out of that curriculum. ---
**Author:** ![Fry](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/fry/32/7284_2.png) [@Fry](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Fry)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 8:46am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/proper-way-to-drive-a-manual/68370/116 "2009-05-28T08:46:13Z")
Theoretically, yes. In most realities, meh you’ll probably never damage a transmission by engine braking as a habit. Unless you habitually downshift at high rpms and sidestep the clutch without giving it any gas for years. Or have an Italian car. Or a GTR? :rimshot: ---
**Author:** ![drvnkd](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/drvnkd/32/109615_2.png) [@drvnkd](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/drvnkd)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 8:51am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/proper-way-to-drive-a-manual/68370/117 "2009-05-28T08:51:36Z")
I wish I could heel toe. I use the ball of my foot to do it as it’s just easier. I also dowshift/revmatch while on the brakes 99% of the time. Its pretty much the only thing that makes my car any fun to drive. eidt: don’t 18 wheelers use a boosted engine brake setup? ---
**Author:** ![boardjnky4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/96bed5/32.png) [@boardjnky4](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/boardjnky4)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 8:52am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/proper-way-to-drive-a-manual/68370/118 "2009-05-28T08:52:47Z")
so it is bad, but minimally. I am not going to put my trust in nissan’s transmission building abilities, I will continue to simultaneously brake and downshift. ---
**Author:** ![Fry](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/fry/32/7284_2.png) [@Fry](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Fry)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 8:55am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/proper-way-to-drive-a-manual/68370/119 "2009-05-28T08:55:32Z")
> [@boardjnky4](#): > > so it is bad, but minimally. > > I am not going to put my trust in nissan’s transmission building abilities, I will continue to simultaneously brake and downshift. Really? All the time? Like for red lights and stuff? ---
**Author:** ![drvnkd](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/drvnkd/32/109615_2.png) [@drvnkd](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/drvnkd)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 8:55am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/proper-way-to-drive-a-manual/68370/120 "2009-05-28T08:55:43Z")
> [@boardjnky4](#): > > I am not going to put my trust in nissan’s transmission building abilities, :rimshot: [Previous page](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/proper-way-to-drive-a-manual/68370.md?page=5) [Next page](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/proper-way-to-drive-a-manual/68370.md?page=7)