# The Healthcare Reform Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** PolitiSUCK\ **Created:** [August 2, 2009, 6:55pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/the-healthcare-reform-thread/71479 "2009-08-02T18:55:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![brent\_strong](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/brent_strong/32/7203_2.png) [@brent\_strong](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/brent_strong)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 10:08am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/the-healthcare-reform-thread/71479/21 "2009-08-03T10:08:15Z")
> [@StrokedZ28](#): > > What a simplistic view. You can work hard be a good person, be educated and still not afford healthcare. > > Do you even see that the skyrocketing cost of healthcare is a problem? We have 50,000,000 uninsured with millions of people underinsured. Tens of thousands of people go bankrupt every year due to medical costs and that number is only going up. > > What is your suggestion for fixing this problem? And don’t give me that “hard work will get you health insurance” bullshit because this problem has gotten well past the “hard work” argument. > > Why is it you are so willing to give so much of your money to a health insurance industry that has a history of abuse on society? What makes you think that going to a public healthcare plan will reduce these costs? Or do you not care because “the rich” will shoulder the tax burden? You’re arguing two very distinct things. 1. Healthcare is too expensive 2. There are too many people that are uninsured I can see how the government could solve #2 (though at an extremely high cost, in all likelihood), but you aren’t addressing #1 at all, which is the root of the problem. You’re arguing as if the government taking over healthcare will remove all of the problems associated with soaring healthcare costs. ---
**Author:** ![Joe](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/joe/32/7219_2.png) [@Joe](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Joe)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 10:12am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/the-healthcare-reform-thread/71479/22 "2009-08-03T10:12:05Z")
> [@brent\_strong](#): > > What makes you think that going to a public healthcare plan will reduce these costs? > > Or do you not care because “the rich” will shoulder the tax burden? > > You’re arguing two very distinct things. > > 1. Healthcare is too expensive > 2. There are too many people that are uninsured > > I can see how the government could solve #2 (though at an extremely high cost, in all likelihood), but you aren’t addressing #1 at all, which is the root of the problem. You’re arguing as if the government taking over healthcare will remove all of the problems associated with soaring healthcare costs. The public option is the only one with enough size to fully take advantage of economies of scale to spread out the fixed costs involved over a much larger number of people, and with enough clout to negotiate lower rates from the providers. When Independent Health or Univera tells Kaleida Health that they aren’t gonna pay $12 a pill for aspirin administered in a hospital, they’re only going to pay $8, Kaleida tells them to suck it, pay the $12 or they won’t accept their coverage any more, they can get by without those patients. When the government tells them they’re paying $8, they suck it up and take it because they can’t afford to lose that big of a group. And Drew, one thing I like about this bill is that it punishes people who can afford healthcare for their kids, and choose not to get it because they’re buying 73" TV’s and cell phone games. No kid should go without medical insurance because their parent would rather be N. Rich. ---
**Author:** ![cougarspeed](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/cougarspeed/32/7468_2.png) [@cougarspeed](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/cougarspeed)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 10:12am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/the-healthcare-reform-thread/71479/23 "2009-08-03T10:12:18Z")
> [@StrokedZ28](#): > > What a simplistic view. You can work hard be a good person, be educated and still not afford healthcare. > Thanks for the insult bro! You are right most people in need are outstanding citizens! My bad! lol > Do you even see that the skyrocketing cost of healthcare is a problem? We have 50,000,000 uninsured with millions of people underinsured. Tens of thousands of people go bankrupt every year due to medical costs and that number is only going up. > Try not ignoring what I said and reading next time. I am in favor of reform. :picard: > What is your suggestion for fixing this problem? And don’t give me that “hard work will get you health insurance” bullshit because this problem has gotten well past the “hard work” argument. > Until i see a spreadsheet with how many people do not have health care but DO have cell phones, cable, newer car, etc etc I do not care about fixing anything. Simply put I do not think people prioritize and or try hard enough in general. Sorry i am just cold hearted ☹ > Why is it you are so willing to give so much of your money to a health insurance industry that has a history of abuse on society? > Again try reading what I have already said and save typing things like this that just make you look SIMPLE! Dude really I know you get off on this stuff but I do not so on that note, have a good one and I hope you and everyone else get all of the handouts you so desire. Holler! ---
**Author:** ![Blue\_Eyed\_Devil](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/blue_eyed_devil/32/7292_2.png) [@Blue\_Eyed\_Devil](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Blue_Eyed_Devil)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 10:19am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/the-healthcare-reform-thread/71479/24 "2009-08-03T10:19:07Z")
> [@Joe](#): > > So food, clothing, and shelter are free now? > And we already give the poor people Medicaid. This wouldn’t change anything with that except make it cheaper. The people getting the “handouts” would be the ones who are currently working for employers that give them the shaft on benefits, or those overpaying for health insurance that doesn’t provide adequate coverage. What? They aren’t rights. I guess if the govt is going to pay for healthcare for everyone then they should pay for all food, water, clothing and shelter for eveyone.(?) ---
**Author:** ![Joe](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/joe/32/7219_2.png) [@Joe](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Joe)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 10:22am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/the-healthcare-reform-thread/71479/25 "2009-08-03T10:22:21Z")
> **[Universal Declaration of Human Rights | United Nations](https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-human-rights)** > > A milestone document in the history of human rights, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights set out, for the first time, fundamental human rights to be universally protected. It has been translated into over 500 languages. #25. > (1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control. ---
**Author:** ![Fry](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/fry/32/7284_2.png) [@Fry](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Fry)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 10:37am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/the-healthcare-reform-thread/71479/26 "2009-08-03T10:37:33Z")
Healthcare is a privelege. It doesn’t exist on its own. It exists by the productivity of the people that created it. It should be a right, but it’s not. ---
**Author:** ![boardjnky4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/96bed5/32.png) [@boardjnky4](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/boardjnky4)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 10:39am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/the-healthcare-reform-thread/71479/27 "2009-08-03T10:39:49Z")
health care is not a right, imo Any ER will take a person in and stabilize them in an emergency. Also, free clinics do exist. Most of them are places where students are learning, so it is free to the patient. I took the GF to one when she was between jobs with no insurance. It wasn’t too bad. Honestly though, health care is expensive. Extensive educations are expensive and deserving of high pay. Engineering and building complex machinery is expensive. The vast amount of small medical supplies add up and get expensive… etc… You can’t expect these services to be free. Who is gonna pay for it? It must be funded somehow. I think that something does need to be done to make all of this more affordable to the patients. However, saying that it is a natural born right to get medical attention is ridiculous. It’s insensitive of me to say, but it’s the truth. You cannot expect people to provide these services at zero charge. ---
**Author:** ![Joe](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/joe/32/7219_2.png) [@Joe](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Joe)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 10:43am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/the-healthcare-reform-thread/71479/28 "2009-08-03T10:43:44Z")
Those of you who feel it’s a privelege, do you feel the same about police and fire services? I mean, those are very expensive, and they exist because of the productivity of the federal, state, and local governments that run them, with the underlying goal of keeping people alive and unharmed, just like the medical system. If not, what’s the difference? Cancer will render you just as dead as a gunshot or a fire. ---
**Author:** ![Blue\_Eyed\_Devil](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/blue_eyed_devil/32/7292_2.png) [@Blue\_Eyed\_Devil](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Blue_Eyed_Devil)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 11:03am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/the-healthcare-reform-thread/71479/29 "2009-08-03T11:03:41Z")
^No. ---
**Author:** ![Joe](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/joe/32/7219_2.png) [@Joe](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Joe)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 11:04am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/the-healthcare-reform-thread/71479/30 "2009-08-03T11:04:16Z")
Why? ---
**Author:** ![cougarspeed](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/cougarspeed/32/7468_2.png) [@cougarspeed](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/cougarspeed)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 11:06am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/the-healthcare-reform-thread/71479/31 "2009-08-03T11:06:24Z")
^ Because ---
**Author:** ![mike125k](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/mike125k/32/7282_2.png) [@mike125k](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/mike125k)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 11:11am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/the-healthcare-reform-thread/71479/32 "2009-08-03T11:11:03Z")
> [@Joe](#): > > Those of you who feel it’s a privelege, do you feel the same about police and fire services? I mean, those are very expensive, and they exist because of the productivity of the federal, state, and local governments that run them, with the underlying goal of keeping people alive and unharmed, just like the medical system. If not, what’s the difference? Cancer will render you just as dead as a gunshot or a fire. If the law would allow me easily carry a gun and dole out justice to those who try to wrong me, then I wouldn’t need to rely on police. Until then, I do need them, so its a completely different argument vs. health care. ---
**Author:** ![Joe](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/joe/32/7219_2.png) [@Joe](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Joe)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 11:14am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/the-healthcare-reform-thread/71479/33 "2009-08-03T11:14:55Z")
wait, wat? You think carrying a gun is a full substitute for police? :bloated: By that logic, you could carry it into the hospital and demand treatment. ---
**Author:** ![mike125k](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/mike125k/32/7282_2.png) [@mike125k](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/mike125k)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 11:18am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/the-healthcare-reform-thread/71479/34 "2009-08-03T11:18:59Z")
What if I did? You apparently think nationalized health care is the way to go. ---
**Author:** ![Joe](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/joe/32/7219_2.png) [@Joe](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Joe)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 11:32am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/the-healthcare-reform-thread/71479/35 "2009-08-03T11:32:21Z")
> [@mike125k](#): > > What if I did? You apparently think nationalized health care is the way to go. Actually, lets use a version of this example. A guy walks into Roswell Park with a gun and takes 10 uninsured cancer patients hostage. He tells each one, “Give me $250,000, or you are going to die.” The government responds instantly, spends millions of dollars on response teams, hostage negotiators, etc., and the problem is neutralized before a shot ever goes off. Now a drug company does the same thing. They demand $250,000 a year for the drug needed for each one to stay alive. Because of this fact, no one will give them private insurance. They either sell their house and spend their life savings and maybe afford it for a year and then try to get Medicaid, or they just accept that they’re screwed. There is no protection for them. They will be left on their own until they’re gravely ill, then given token treatment to keep them alive a couple extra days. Which the hospital will get stiffed for. If the police worked like the health insurance system, everyone would have to pay for their own police services. If you couldn’t afford it, sucks for you, they will come to the scene AFTER you get shot, but if you want them to come out and stop the guy first, swipe your credit card. Or a private fire department that you had to either pay for coverage every year, or drop hundreds of thousands of dollars when your house was on fire, or they wouldn’t come save you. ---
**Author:** ![Joe](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/joe/32/7219_2.png) [@Joe](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Joe)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 11:47am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/the-healthcare-reform-thread/71479/36 "2009-08-03T11:47:30Z")
> [@Penfold](#): > > [http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090803/ap\_on\_go\_pr\_wh/us\_economy](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090803/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_economy) > > oops. [http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSTRE5724EH20090803](http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSTRE5724EH20090803) Obama just pwned Tiny Tim. ---
**Author:** ![mike125k](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/mike125k/32/7282_2.png) [@mike125k](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/mike125k)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 11:49am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/the-healthcare-reform-thread/71479/37 "2009-08-03T11:49:21Z")
^ Tell me how that example isn’t the case right now. You call Clarence PD and Buffalo PD that someone broke into your house. See which one shows up first. Life isn’t fair, its time people start remembering that age old fact. You want something, pick up a book, go to school, get a job, work hard, etc and get it for yourself. You replied too fast, my arrow was in response to post #35. ---
**Author:** ![Joe](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/joe/32/7219_2.png) [@Joe](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Joe)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 11:54am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/the-healthcare-reform-thread/71479/38 "2009-08-03T11:54:44Z")
> [@mike125k](#): > > ^ Tell me how that example isn’t the case right now. You call Clarence PD and Buffalo PD that someone broke into your house. See which one shows up first. > > Life isn’t fair, its time people start remembering that age old fact. You want something, pick up a book, go to school, get a job, work hard, etc and get it for yourself. > > You replied too fast, my arrow was in response to post #35. #1 is true. But that’s due to an abundance of crime in the city and lack of relative police manpower. Buffalo PD will still come out ASAP, just it’s slower. They don’t flat-out refuse to come out unless you pay them. As for your second point, pick up all the books you want. They’re not going to get you health insurance if you have a pre-existing condition. If it stops you from working, you’re even more fucked. ---
**Author:** ![mike125k](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/mike125k/32/7282_2.png) [@mike125k](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/mike125k)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 11:55am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/the-healthcare-reform-thread/71479/39 "2009-08-03T11:55:54Z")
Then refer to my other point… “Life isn’t fair” ---
**Author:** ![Fry](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/fry/32/7284_2.png) [@Fry](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Fry)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 11:57am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/the-healthcare-reform-thread/71479/40 "2009-08-03T11:57:22Z")
> [@Joe](#): > > Those of you who feel it’s a privelege, do you feel the same about police and fire services? I mean, those are very expensive, and they exist because of the productivity of the federal, state, and local governments that run them, with the underlying goal of keeping people alive and unharmed, just like the medical system. If not, what’s the difference? Cancer will render you just as dead as a gunshot or a fire. Yep they’re all priveleges of the first world. The difference is that they don’t cost as much so people ignore them when screaming about socialism. If we can afford universal healthcare then great. If not then I hope all of my diseases consult my paycheck before choosing to infect me. [Previous page](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/the-healthcare-reform-thread/71479.md?page=1) [Next page](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/the-healthcare-reform-thread/71479.md?page=3)