# The Trump Presidency Discussion Thread (Non-Meme version) **URL:** \ **Category:** NYSpeed Off Topic\ **Created:** [December 12, 2016, 1:42pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/the-trump-presidency-discussion-thread-non-meme-version/274441 "2016-12-12T13:42:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![bing](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/bing/32/7211_2.png) [@bing](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/bing)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2017, 1:23pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/the-trump-presidency-discussion-thread-non-meme-version/274441/261 "2017-01-31T13:23:33Z")
> [@Paulo](#): > > There is no reason that the US can’t help those in need AND our own people. How about the billions of dollars being proposed to build an over-compensation wall at the southern border when that funding could be used for veteran care? Those arguments are everywhere. I agree with you that the wall is over-compensation. I would say the better word is ‘symbolic’ and it is an over-reaction AND an over-correction to a problem that should have been dealt with a long time ago but wasn’t. The wall would not be necessary if policy had of sorted the problem out. But it hasn’t and it isn’t and a big, useless, infrastructure spend as a ‘fuck you’ to everyone who should have sorted this out but didnt or in many cases made it worse seems no more unreasonable than the many other forms of bullshit that come out of US and Canadian politics on the daily. ---
**Author:** ![Paulo](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/paulo/32/7328_2.png) [@Paulo](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Paulo)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2017, 1:27pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/the-trump-presidency-discussion-thread-non-meme-version/274441/262 "2017-01-31T13:27:30Z")
> [@Onyx Z32](#): > > Oh we certainly can, the debate is over if we should. That’s a personal moral question. The only debate I see here is bringing up why we shouldn’t be wasting resources on refugees and instead should be putting it towards helping Americans. People are not taking a moral stance here… > [@Onyx Z32](#): > > Libya = Benghazi = Ambassador Chris Stevens, etc. > Iran = sending fighters & road side bombs to Iraq = lots of dead US soldiers. > Yemen = USS Cole bombing = 17 killed, 39 injured > > That’s just off the top of my head. Definitely not zero. I should have added immigrants to the US which caused American fatalities. You’re correct. I’m not sure we need to get into it further. The point was that the current process wasn’t allowing these people into the US from the banned countries. > [@Onyx Z32](#): > > This is the specificity that congress has asked for and hasn’t been given. Show me how you can know the unknown and I’ll be totally trusting of the vetting. I’m not sure what else to say, really. Why trust any immigrant at all? If the US took more of an isolationist stance earlier, I may not be living in this country right now. ---
**Author:** ![JayS](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/jays/32/15375_2.png) [@JayS](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/JayS)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2017, 1:27pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/the-trump-presidency-discussion-thread-non-meme-version/274441/263 "2017-01-31T13:27:49Z")
The wall is part of America First. And yes, this country was built by immigrants WHO CAME HERE LEGALLY. Besides that, the country is built now. Nothing wrong with saying we’re no longer looking for your tired and poor huddled masses because we’ve got enough of those already. How about, “Send us your contributing members of society, and even then only if they work in fields where our legal resident wages can’t fill a void”. America First means no, we’re not going to help people here and help people there. We’re going to help people here and if we get to a point where there’s no one left here to help then we’ll go looking for needy elsewhere. You want to help Syrians, or Ethiopians, or what ever oppressed group is currently fashionable on social media, good for you. Whip out that checkbook, start a GoFundMe and make sure to post all about it so people can see how altruistic you are. Hopefully though the days of the government deciding to take money out everyone’s pocket to give to world charities is over. ---
**Author:** ![Onyx\_Z32](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/onyx_z32/32/7581_2.png) [@Onyx\_Z32](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Onyx_Z32)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2017, 1:27pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/the-trump-presidency-discussion-thread-non-meme-version/274441/264 "2017-01-31T13:27:54Z")
> [@superfan99](#): > > … It’s not a defacto “Muslim ban” as it’s being reported, but I think the intent of the action is pretty clear when taken in context of what’s been said previously, regardless of however easily walked back on legal grounds or wordsmithing. That’s fair, similar to @Paulo’s opinion. Trump was out there talking in-artfully about banning Muslims during the campaign. But even if that is his goal, I just don’t think this is it. I think the media and those who want to build resistance to Trump are jumping on an EO, one that isn’t that dissimilar to Obama’s, and twisting the issue into what they want it to be. Read the document I posted by CTR / David Brock / Media Matters; they want to focus on promoting issues that have a strong moral component to help push their agenda. I’m paraphrasing but if you read it, that’s in there. ---
**Author:** ![Paulo](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/paulo/32/7328_2.png) [@Paulo](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Paulo)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2017, 1:29pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/the-trump-presidency-discussion-thread-non-meme-version/274441/265 "2017-01-31T13:29:21Z")
> [@bing](#): > > I agree with you that the wall is over-compensation. I would say the better word is ‘symbolic’ and it is an over-reaction AND an over-correction to a problem that should have been dealt with a long time ago but wasn’t. > > The wall would not be necessary if policy had of sorted the problem out. But it hasn’t and it isn’t and a big, useless, infrastructure spend as a ‘fuck you’ to everyone who should have sorted this out but didnt or in many cases made it worse seems no more unreasonable than the many other forms of bullshit that come out of US and Canadian politics on the daily. The vast majority of illegal immigrants in the US came here legally. The wall is a fucking boondoggle and will not solve shit. ---
**Author:** ![superfan99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/96bed5/32.png) [@superfan99](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/superfan99)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2017, 1:31pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/the-trump-presidency-discussion-thread-non-meme-version/274441/266 "2017-01-31T13:31:38Z")
> [@Onyx Z32](#): > > Sorry, missed your edit. > > So you’ve addressed how this EO could be conflated as being directed _indirectly_ towards Muslims, but what about all of the other, larger, Muslim majority countries which are not part of the EO? Or Muslim minority countries which are not mentioned either but that have more relaxed travel between them and the US? I’ll take a stab at that. The other majority Muslim countries aren’t generally experiencing the sort of humanitarian crises the countries involved in the ban are. There simply aren’t a significant number of refugees from those countries. Emigres follow the more typical immigration process from those countries. - - - Updated - - - > [@Onyx Z32](#): > > I think the media and those who want to build resistance to Trump are jumping on an EO, one that isn’t that dissimilar to Obama’s, and twisting the issue into what they want it to be. Which EO of Obama’s? ---
**Author:** ![Paulo](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/paulo/32/7328_2.png) [@Paulo](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Paulo)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2017, 1:32pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/the-trump-presidency-discussion-thread-non-meme-version/274441/267 "2017-01-31T13:32:42Z")
> [@Onyx Z32](#): > > Still calling it a ban 🙂 > > If we’re “banning Muslims” wouldn’t it make sense to ban them from countries like Saudi Arabia or Egypt as well? Or is it more likely that the intent of the EO is to not ban all Muslims, but rather restrict travel from countries which don’t have as detailed record keeping as Saudi Arabia or Egypt? To restrict travel from countries where we don’t even have an embassy or normalized political relations? What are you talking about? Are you projecting CNNs stories on me or something? I didn’t call it a ban in a derogatory sense, just thought that’s what it was. I’ll just say EO from now on. ---
**Author:** ![Onyx\_Z32](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/onyx_z32/32/7581_2.png) [@Onyx\_Z32](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Onyx_Z32)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2017, 1:34pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/the-trump-presidency-discussion-thread-non-meme-version/274441/268 "2017-01-31T13:34:36Z")
> [@Paulo](#): > > The only debate I see here is bringing up why we shouldn’t be wasting resources on refugees and instead should be putting it towards helping Americans. People are not taking a moral stance here… You might not, but a lot of people on the left are making the specific argument that we need to help anyone that asks for it simply because they ask for it. All other considerations be damned. > [@Paulo](#): > > I’m not sure what else to say, really. Why trust any immigrant at all? If the US took more of an isolationist stance earlier, I may not be living in this country right now. At the risk of talking in circles, > [@Onyx Z32](#): > > Some of these countries are failed states, with no record keeping to speak of. It’s apples to oranges comparing immigration from Canada to the US and Libya to the US. The counter terrorism screening center can’t call someone in Libya and get the address, former employer info, etc. Not all immigrants are equal. Some like yourself come from developed countries with similar value systems. Others come from countries like Iran that throw gay people from buildings. Apples to oranges. ---
**Author:** ![superfan99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/96bed5/32.png) [@superfan99](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/superfan99)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2017, 1:36pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/the-trump-presidency-discussion-thread-non-meme-version/274441/269 "2017-01-31T13:36:31Z")
Also, just want to say thanks for a good, civil discussion. I admittedly live in a “liberal bubble”, and I’m always interested in hearing, discussing opposing viewpoints. Just don’t have much of an opportunity for that in my circles. ---
**Author:** ![bing](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/bing/32/7211_2.png) [@bing](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/bing)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2017, 1:42pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/the-trump-presidency-discussion-thread-non-meme-version/274441/270 "2017-01-31T13:42:21Z")
> [@Paulo](#): > > The wall… will not solve shit. I agree in part. It is symbolic, it will have some symbolic effect but i understand that anyone determined to get to the US will not be stopped by the wall. > [@superfan99](#): > > Emigres… learned a new word today – With regard to constitutionality, correct me if i am wrong, but 8 US code 1182 effectively confirms that the President has the right to do this. The constitutional challenges is that the action is contrary to other parts of the constitution right? In that case, wouldnt the absolute ‘trump’ the subjective… the 1182 is pretty absolute. everything else is more subjective. ---
**Author:** ![Onyx\_Z32](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/onyx_z32/32/7581_2.png) [@Onyx\_Z32](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Onyx_Z32)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2017, 1:46pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/the-trump-presidency-discussion-thread-non-meme-version/274441/271 "2017-01-31T13:46:09Z")
> [@superfan99](#): > > … other majority Muslim countries aren’t generally experiencing the sort of humanitarian crises the countries involved in the ban are… Not all of them. Certainly not Iran. This is true of Syria, but we’re just starting to get a consensus with Saudi Arabia and Qatar on establishing safe zones so civilians won’t have such a need to flee. > [@superfan99](#): > > Which EO of Obama’s? Sorry, not an EO. There were travel restrictions placed on those visiting those same countries by the Obama administration. - - - Updated - - - > [@Paulo](#): > > What are you talking about? Are you projecting CNNs stories on me or something? I didn’t call it a ban in a derogatory sense, just thought that’s what it was. I’ll just say EO from now on. No I wasn’t implying you were being derogatory, only parroting the media narrative 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![bing](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/bing/32/7211_2.png) [@bing](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/bing)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2017, 1:59pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/the-trump-presidency-discussion-thread-non-meme-version/274441/272 "2017-01-31T13:59:17Z")
> **[Exclusive: A third of Americans think Trump's travel ban will make...](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-immigration-poll-exclusive-idUSKBN15F2MG)** > > Imposing a temporary travel ban on citizens from seven Muslim countries, President Donald Trump said the move would help protect the United States from terrorism. But less than one-third of Americans believe the move makes them "more safe," according... 49% of Americans surveyed approve the ban. 41% opposed. ---
**Author:** ![Onyx\_Z32](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/onyx_z32/32/7581_2.png) [@Onyx\_Z32](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Onyx_Z32)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2017, 1:59pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/the-trump-presidency-discussion-thread-non-meme-version/274441/273 "2017-01-31T13:59:22Z")
> [@superfan99](#): > > Also, just want to say thanks for a good, civil discussion. I admittedly live in a “liberal bubble”, and I’m always interested in hearing, discussing opposing viewpoints. Just don’t have much of an opportunity for that in my circles. :tup: Agreed. lots of yelling going on out there and not much conversation. Mostly people on the right see those on the left as not interested in their opinion because the left initially assumes the right’s motivations are bigoted, sexist, etc. It’s unfortunate. > [@bing](#): > > … with regard to constitutionality, correct me if i am wrong, but 8 US code 1182 effectively confirms that the President has the right to do this. The constitutional challenges is that the action is contrary to other parts of the constitution right? > > In that case, wouldnt the absolute ‘trump’ the subjective… the 1182 is pretty absolute. everything else is more subjective. They can certainly bring a challenge. Obama’s EO on amnesty was shut down by the court. We’ll see. ---
**Author:** ![superfan99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/96bed5/32.png) [@superfan99](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/superfan99)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2017, 1:59pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/the-trump-presidency-discussion-thread-non-meme-version/274441/274 "2017-01-31T13:59:53Z")
> [@bing](#): > > learned a new word today > > – > > With regard to constitutionality, correct me if i am wrong, but 8 US code 1182 effectively confirms that the President has the right to do this. The constitutional challenges is that the action is contrary to other parts of the constitution right? > > In that case, wouldnt the absolute ‘trump’ the subjective… the 1182 is pretty absolute. everything else is more subjective. A “Muslim Ban” would likely be found unconstitutional. Banning people from specific countries is not. It’s likely to expire before it could even really be thoroughly litigated, unless he fails to sunset the Syria ban. ---
**Author:** ![JayS](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/jays/32/15375_2.png) [@JayS](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/JayS)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2017, 2:06pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/the-trump-presidency-discussion-thread-non-meme-version/274441/275 "2017-01-31T14:06:29Z")
> [@Onyx Z32](#): > > They can certainly bring a challenge. Obama’s EO on amnesty was shut down by the court. We’ll see. The difference is Obama’s amnesty was a gross overstep of his power while Trump’s travel restrictions are specifically spelled out in US law. ---
**Author:** ![joelster](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/joelster/32/7258_2.png) [@joelster](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/joelster)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2017, 3:38pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/the-trump-presidency-discussion-thread-non-meme-version/274441/276 "2017-01-31T15:38:34Z")
I never understood why all of these middle east refugees have to come here. By “here” I mean hop on a plane and fly 4000 miles or whatever it is. Why not hop on a bus and go to Egypt, Jordan, Turkey, Italy, Germany, France, Spain, Portugal, Belgium, Denmark, etc, etc, etc, Why are we always the country that gets every others countries rejects and fleeing population? I’m sure there are some other countries that take in refugees as well, but our own population is out of control. Not to age myself here, but I distinctly remember being in school (jr high or earlier), and our population right after a census was 235,000,000. Now we are at 330,000,000. Doesn’t that alarm any of you? ---
**Author:** ![bing](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/bing/32/7211_2.png) [@bing](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/bing)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2017, 3:57pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/the-trump-presidency-discussion-thread-non-meme-version/274441/277 "2017-01-31T15:57:52Z")
> [@joelster](#): > > I never understood why all of these middle east refugees have to come here. By “here” I mean hop on a plane and fly 4000 miles or whatever it is. Why not hop on a bus and go to Egypt, Jordan, Turkey, Italy, Germany, France, Spain, Portugal, Belgium, Denmark, etc, etc, etc, > > Why are we always the country that gets every others countries rejects and fleeing population? I’m sure there are some other countries that take in refugees as well, but our own population is out of control. > > Not to age myself here, but I distinctly remember being in school (jr high or earlier), and our population right after a census was 235,000,000. Now we are at 330,000,000. Doesn’t that alarm any of you? US has it is easy. There is a desert and an ocean in the way. Europe is FUCKED with all of these refugees. France is a mess. Germany is going to be a mess. Greece…lol… like they need a couple million more unemployed people. ---
**Author:** ![LZ1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@LZ1](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/LZ1)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2017, 4:05pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/the-trump-presidency-discussion-thread-non-meme-version/274441/278 "2017-01-31T16:05:31Z")
What I don’t get is France, Belgium, and even Germany are fairly welcoming to immigrants from those countries and look how well that turned out for them? ---
**Author:** ![bing](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/bing/32/7211_2.png) [@bing](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/bing)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2017, 4:37pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/the-trump-presidency-discussion-thread-non-meme-version/274441/279 "2017-01-31T16:37:08Z")
my sarcasm meter just jumped… ---
**Author:** ![nermoria](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b9e5f3/32.png) [@nermoria](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/nermoria)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2017, 4:43pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/the-trump-presidency-discussion-thread-non-meme-version/274441/280 "2017-01-31T16:43:47Z")
I came into the USA as a refugee, what NPR lists as the process is not what I went through. I also just recently brought my wife over from Ukraine so I have first hand experience with the immigration process. I wonder how many people who call this " bad for people in hardship" actually have experience with the process? Which brings me to this… Who the hell said America owes anything to refugees, people in hardship etc. around the globe? First and foremost, the US government is responsible for the well being of the US Citizens. Or what, just because they request it, they are entitled to it? That’s complete bullshit, the USA doesn’t owe anybody shit, if we want to, we accept people, if we don’t, that’s our choice to make. And don’t get me started with “This goes against everything American and the history of our founding.” Well yes, how about you actually use the brain that you have and recall history. Legal migrants. Migrants that were accepted, we have a certain quota we let in which fluctuates. Quit putting all immigrants in the same boat. America was founded on immigrants like me, not illegal aliens or people who felt that the USA owed it to them to take them in. There are 7 billion people in the world, we can’t take care of everyone out there. Especially when we have people living in boxes on our own streets. Anybody grasping for the whole “undo hardships for those in need” is just grasping at shit. If the regular immigration process doesn’t allow you to come in? Tough shit! Move on! If that was the answer I was given, I would move on and deal with it like a man and not like some bloody entitled asshole. 90% of my family is still overseas and taking shits in outhouses. I’m not going to try to smuggle them in illegally. I was given the chance, they weren’t. Tough luck. Hell, looking at these protests going on now, maybe I should have waited a couple years and had my wife come in like all these people flooding in right now. I would have $80k more in the bank account that’s for sure. [Previous page](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/the-trump-presidency-discussion-thread-non-meme-version/274441.md?page=13) [Next page](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/the-trump-presidency-discussion-thread-non-meme-version/274441.md?page=15)