# Those against a "bail-out" read here **URL:** \ **Category:** NYSpeed Automotive\ **Created:** [November 18, 2008, 7:48pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/those-against-a-bail-out-read-here/58387 "2008-11-18T19:48:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Jam](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/jam/32/7235_2.png) [@Jam](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Jam)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 6:47am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/those-against-a-bail-out-read-here/58387/41 "2008-11-19T06:47:46Z")
![http://www.kitfoster.com/images/2005-10-26_YatesWeb-Large.jpg](http://www.kitfoster.com/images/2005-10-26_YatesWeb-Large.jpg) this book came out in 1982 iirc it was bound to happen its survival of the fittest, remember packard? and indian motorcycles? they all went under… its a shame, but i wouldnt ever buy an american car. ive owned 3, 2 fords and a chevy. both of my fords started on fire, one a wiring harness (headlight switch) and one the rear drum brake seized causing my rear tire to smolder. i have yet to own an import car that has started on fire. i dont like it when my cars start on fire. therefore, i buy import cars ---
**Author:** ![Jim1234664](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/jim1234664/32/7438_2.png) [@Jim1234664](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Jim1234664)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 6:48am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/those-against-a-bail-out-read-here/58387/42 "2008-11-19T06:48:10Z")
> [@Just Karter](#): > > It would be profitable because they would be paying less to build them. > If the cost to build them goes down 50% the cost of the vehicle goes down 50% but the sales go up 200% you make alot more money. > > The majority of americans would buy americas little cars if they cost the same as the competition. **To be totaly honest I wouldnt even go look at a cavy (cobalt) knowing I could get a fit for half the price and If I wanted a sporty fuel efficient car. the entire country thinks the same way**. What the fuck? what fantasy world do you live in? the cobalt msrp is comparable to the fit and with current employee pricing its thousands less… ---
**Author:** ![JayS](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/jays/32/15375_2.png) [@JayS](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/JayS)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 7:04am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/those-against-a-bail-out-read-here/58387/43 "2008-11-19T07:04:13Z")
PS: This thread is an excellent example of why people like Fry, Nikuk and EvilJay left. You idiots don’t know how to just ignore the trolls and Howie wouldn’t let any of the mods ban trolls simply for being ignorant trolls. I don’t know if Karter is dumb enough to believe the shit he posts, or if he’s just a fat sack of crap that posts it for the amusement of watching you idiots engage him. Either way though just adding him to your ignore list makes life much easier (at least until a whole pile of idiots quote him an I see his stupidity anyway). ---
**Author:** ![Jim1234664](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/jim1234664/32/7438_2.png) [@Jim1234664](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Jim1234664)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 7:14am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/those-against-a-bail-out-read-here/58387/44 "2008-11-19T07:14:17Z")
> [@JayS](#): > > PS: > > This thread is an excellent example of why people like Fry, Nikuk and EvilJay left. You idiots don’t know how to just ignore the trolls and Howie wouldn’t let any of the mods ban trolls simply for being ignorant trolls. > > I don’t know if Karter is dumb enough to believe the shit he posts, or if he’s just a fat sack of crap that posts it for the amusement of watching you idiots engage him. Either way though just adding him to your ignore list makes life much easier (at least until a whole pile of idiots quote him an I see his stupidity anyway). I dont know if I totally agree with you about karters intent, however, if he was to be writing 10 paragraph long responses every day then wow does he waste a shitload of time ---
**Author:** ![Firehawk853](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/firehawk853/32/7607_2.png) [@Firehawk853](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Firehawk853)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 7:29am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/those-against-a-bail-out-read-here/58387/45 "2008-11-19T07:29:55Z")
I agree that losing any of the car companies would be a fatal mistake. However the massive choice of cars is disgusting. Too many cars, too many choices. I am expecting many of the ‘not so popular’ lines to shut down. I hope also that the unions will see that they cannot continue to demand more and more without giving something up…like thier job. ---
**Author:** ![66impalass](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/66impalass/32/7429_2.png) [@66impalass](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/66impalass)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 7:32am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/those-against-a-bail-out-read-here/58387/46 "2008-11-19T07:32:24Z")
> [@JayS](#): > > …Either way though just adding him to your ignore list makes life much easier (at least until a whole pile of idiots quote him an I see his stupidity anyway). this statement has the most truth out of this whole thread ---
**Author:** ![Blue\_Eyed\_Devil](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/blue_eyed_devil/32/7292_2.png) [@Blue\_Eyed\_Devil](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Blue_Eyed_Devil)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 7:43am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/those-against-a-bail-out-read-here/58387/47 "2008-11-19T07:43:10Z")
Why aren’t the auto mag. guys on the news channels?!? They keep inviting financial people on to explain the troubles of the big three. There was one auto guy on Fox the other night that was trying to explain the stigma with American cars and the Fox news guy totally shut him down and said he didn’t believe it because he drove a Cadillac for 2 months and loved it. The guy tried to explain that people with American cars always made excuses like, “my brother got me a great deal that’s why I bought it”. People rarely ever brag about owning American anymore because they sucked for so long. They need to get car guys on tv to get to the bottom of the problem. Talking to financial experts aint cuttin it. How many middle/upper middle class people(you know, the ones buying cars) do you know that buy American cars? Of all my friends and family I know of 3 and they are all Fords. The irony is that the big three made it their goal to stomp out hundreds of other auto makers in the USA. ---
**Author:** ![Geoff](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/geoff/32/6104_2.png) [@Geoff](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Geoff)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 7:46am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/those-against-a-bail-out-read-here/58387/48 "2008-11-19T07:46:01Z")
Those against sending “penis photos” to fellow NYSpeeders read here. ---
**Author:** ![Zong](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/zong/32/7580_2.png) [@Zong](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Zong)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 7:46am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/those-against-a-bail-out-read-here/58387/49 "2008-11-19T07:46:47Z")
How long do you think before laid off GM employees get so bored they start sending each other pictures of their junk? ---
**Author:** ![rdandy5875](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/rdandy5875/32/7511_2.png) [@rdandy5875](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/rdandy5875)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 8:52am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/those-against-a-bail-out-read-here/58387/50 "2008-11-19T08:52:47Z")
> [@JayS](#): > > I think the reality of not getting a bailout will be somewhere between what the two sides are predicting. > > It won’t be the total chaos RJ is predicting because those numbers that are being put out by the auto industry ignore the simple fact that GM/Ford/Chrysler going out of business will not change the overall DEMAND for cars that much. People will still need cars, so business will increase for the remaining manufactures. In case you haven’t noticed, a lot of “foreign” cars are produced right here on US soil as opposed to your Mexican built “domestic” autos. As that demand goes up at Honda/Toyota/Mazda et al their existing workforce will not be able to meet demand and who better to hire than an experienced GM/Ford/Chrysler employee. They won’t get the same old contracts that were destroying their old employers though. > > It won’t be as painless as the anti-bailout crew is saying either though. Health care benefits for retirees will be a huge issue. I find it funny and worrying at the same time that the very people who elected a president telling us Obamacare would take care of all our health care needs are saying that retirees losing their UAW health care is a major reason to support the bailout. But anyway… there will be costs to the taxpayer one way or another to continue coverage for these retirees and their government guaranteed pension plans. > > There will be additional pain as the consolidation of demand across fewer producers leads to cost savings in manufacturing. They’ll still need X number of workers to build Y number of cars, but with less makes/models/assembly lines/factories you need far less managers. You still need X number of components like radio and tires, but again, you have less different companies involved which means more assembly people and less managers and office support type positions. Unfortunately fat probably needs to be cut here. > > One thing I really don’t buy is the anti-bailout claim that they should just go into chapter 11 bankruptcy protection and that will allow them to shed debt and reorganize and everything will be great. I really doubt many people will be willing to buy a car from a manufacturer in bankruptcy. If GM files chapter 11 I doubt they will ever survive it. > > Bottom line, I’m leaning my support toward some sort of bailout but with extremely strict terms. Things I would have to see to support a bailout of GM: > > 1. Major union concessions > 2. Guarantees that the money would go toward operating expenses that drive the business (R&D, quality control, better materials etc). > 3. Guarantees that the money would not go to stupid ideas like buying Chrysler. GM needs less shitty and brands, not more. > 4. A well laid out business plan, reviewed by an independent financial review board, showing GM at least has a chance of recovery and eventual payback of this bailout money. > > With out those 4 conditions, let them go under. It’s better to have some pain now and start a recovery than continue dumping money into a doomed company. 👏 ---
**Author:** ![Penfold](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/penfold/32/5007_2.png) [@Penfold](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Penfold)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 9:16am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/those-against-a-bail-out-read-here/58387/51 "2008-11-19T09:16:10Z")
I have an idea… GM claims that chapter 11 is impossible because they will not be able to secure the necessary restructuring loans. Well, if there is going to be a bailout, why not use it as restructuring loans after they file chapter 11? That way they might actually have a chance of restructuring in a more profitable manner. It is very obvious that they need to downsize A LOT! The entire auto industry needs to get use to no more false credit rating standards and the fact thy are no longer going to be able to sell 17 million cars a year in the US. ---
**Author:** ![nelstoys](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/48db29/32.png) [@nelstoys](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/nelstoys)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 9:25am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/those-against-a-bail-out-read-here/58387/52 "2008-11-19T09:25:36Z")
Sux for all the workers, but they will just blow the bail out $, and we will have this same problem again. ---
**Author:** ![66impalass](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/66impalass/32/7429_2.png) [@66impalass](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/66impalass)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 9:50am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/those-against-a-bail-out-read-here/58387/53 "2008-11-19T09:50:18Z")
> [@nelstoys](#): > > Sux for all the workers, but they will just blow the bail out $, and we will have this same problem again. why does it suck for the workers, they are the reason they are in this issue in the first place ---
**Author:** ![Blue\_Eyed\_Devil](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/blue_eyed_devil/32/7292_2.png) [@Blue\_Eyed\_Devil](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Blue_Eyed_Devil)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 10:52am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/those-against-a-bail-out-read-here/58387/54 "2008-11-19T10:52:39Z")
Did anyone post this yet? - Honda opens a new plant in the US - Timing is everything. lol ---
**Author:** ![LZ1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@LZ1](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/LZ1)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 10:54am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/those-against-a-bail-out-read-here/58387/55 "2008-11-19T10:54:31Z")
Unskilled manufacturing in America is dieing off deal with it… ---
**Author:** ![SideWinderGX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/fbc32d/32.png) [@SideWinderGX](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/SideWinderGX)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 10:59am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/those-against-a-bail-out-read-here/58387/56 "2008-11-19T10:59:01Z")
If GM, Ford and Chrysler weren’t being fucking stupid for the past 20 years, and planned ahead, we wouldn’t be in this situation. I know a number of people who have worked for Ford and a foreign automaker (Toyota or Nissan, specifically). Toyota/Nissan workers care about the company, don’t slack off, and in general are just great workers. Ford workers, on the other hand, care about nothing but themselves, are greedy and corrupt, and will gladly sacrifice the company to make a buck…and that isn’t just in one portion of the company, but the whole hierarchy. Bite the bullet, and stop trying to sugar coat the situation. It’s shitty. ---
**Author:** ![LZ1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@LZ1](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/LZ1)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 11:09am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/those-against-a-bail-out-read-here/58387/57 "2008-11-19T11:09:03Z")
Maybe all the people who work on the GM assembly line who drive vettes and have 250k+ houses should throw in some money to save the company that has been over paying them… ---
**Author:** ![ubengineering](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/ubengineering/32/5171_2.png) [@ubengineering](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/ubengineering)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 11:19am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/those-against-a-bail-out-read-here/58387/58 "2008-11-19T11:19:43Z")
> [@LZ](#): > > Maybe all the people who work on the GM assembly line who drive vettes and have 250k+ houses should throw in some money to save the company that has been over paying them… lol no one likes to give back money, its a one way street ---
**Author:** ![bing](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/bing/32/7211_2.png) [@bing](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/bing)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 11:25am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/those-against-a-bail-out-read-here/58387/59 "2008-11-19T11:25:50Z")
everyone knows its a bad thing if they default… however, i can’t wait for people to finally get pissed off enough to revolt. Not against each other, but against politicians, police, financiers… we get prodded and pushed a little bit further all the time. constant inflation, increases in taxes, the continued criminalization of non-criminal behaviour, social taxes, decreases in benefits and social services etc. etc. All of the things above have been ways for us to bare the burden of these failing companies anyways. start from scratch… the amount of opportunity that would be available on the rebound from such a collapse is unfathomable. The people in North America that are truely talented and bright would assume responsibility, shine and take the lead. The people who in the current system become politicians would be the ones on the line. ---
**Author:** ![TrueBlue](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/trueblue/32/7245_2.png) [@TrueBlue](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/TrueBlue)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 11:27am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/those-against-a-bail-out-read-here/58387/60 "2008-11-19T11:27:40Z")
There is a retarded amount of bullshit in this thread. Wow. [Previous page](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/those-against-a-bail-out-read-here/58387.md?page=2) [Next page](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/those-against-a-bail-out-read-here/58387.md?page=4)