# Those against a "bail-out" read here **URL:** \ **Category:** NYSpeed Automotive\ **Created:** [November 18, 2008, 7:48pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/those-against-a-bail-out-read-here/58387 "2008-11-18T19:48:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![rdandy5875](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/rdandy5875/32/7511_2.png) [@rdandy5875](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/rdandy5875)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 11:29am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/those-against-a-bail-out-read-here/58387/61 "2008-11-19T11:29:52Z")
UAW needs severe restructuring for sure. When I worked at automated machine technologies, I witnessed first hand what goes on the in the gm powertrain plant, and how little union workers are required to do on the line. Also the anomisity the engineers, who are not union btw, have toward the union workers. I’m sorry if it makes anyone feel bad, but you don’t deserve to get paid $50k a year + benefits to sit there and screw in 3 bolts all day long. And half the time they can’t do that correctly, or the required work is in some violation of union rules. So I would go in there and have to design a machine to make their jobs even easier. I look liked like a big shot, but the reality was I was using my brain, working my ass off at work and school, and getting paid half of what the laborers were making with only a req’d. GED. Some guys had good work ethic, tried to go above and beyond, and instead of them getting rewarded for that, they are reprimanded because they broke union rules. ---
**Author:** ![civicjim](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/civicjim/32/5297_2.png) [@civicjim](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/civicjim)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 12:11pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/those-against-a-bail-out-read-here/58387/62 "2008-11-19T12:11:17Z")
> [@SideWinderGX](#): > > If GM, Ford and Chrysler weren’t being fucking stupid for the past 20 years, and planned ahead, we wouldn’t be in this situation. They are (and have been) locked into union contracts. They really don’t have a lot of wiggle room. > [@SideWinderGX](#): > > I know a number of people who have worked for Ford and a foreign automaker (Toyota or Nissan, specifically). Toyota/Nissan workers care about the company, don’t slack off, and in general are just great workers. Ford workers, on the other hand, care about nothing but themselves, are greedy and corrupt, and will gladly sacrifice the company to make a buck…and that isn’t just in one portion of the company, but the whole hierarchy. Ford and GM workers care too, about their union. They have had the stance for years that the union has their back and Ford and GM are just money hungry companies that are trying to screw them and the UAW is their savior. I hope some of them are inteligent enough to turn around and point the finger right back at the UAW when their jobs are gone. ---
**Author:** ![SideWinderGX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/fbc32d/32.png) [@SideWinderGX](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/SideWinderGX)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 12:25pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/those-against-a-bail-out-read-here/58387/63 "2008-11-19T12:25:23Z")
> [@civicjim](#): > > They are (and have been) locked into union contracts. They really don’t have a lot of wiggle room. So I’m right, but for a reason I didn’t state (but now acknowledge). We’re on the same page I’d say 🙂 > [@civicjim](#): > > Ford and GM workers care too, about their union. They have had the stance for years that the union has their back and Ford and GM are just money hungry companies that are trying to screw them and the UAW is their savior. I hope some of them are inteligent enough to turn around and point the finger right back at the UAW when their jobs are gone. All the workers are out there just trying to make a quick buck. The unions came to their rescue, got them more money, and got loyal ‘customers’. Now the unions are taking after the workers and being stupid/greedy. It’s SO easy to just sit down and discuss what both sides want, and compromise. When you have moneyhungry neanderthols not wanting to give a little to make everyone happy…well, you get the big 3. ---
**Author:** ![JayS](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/jays/32/15375_2.png) [@JayS](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/JayS)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 1:06pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/those-against-a-bail-out-read-here/58387/64 "2008-11-19T13:06:11Z")
:lol: > **[Big Three auto CEOs flew private jets to ask for taxpayer money - CNN.com](http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/11/19/autos.ceo.jets/index.html)** > > Some lawmakers lashed out at the CEOs of the Big Three auto companies Wednesday for flying private jets to Washington to request taxpayer bailout money. > “There is a delicious irony in seeing private luxury jets flying into Washington, D.C., and people coming off of them with tin cups in their hand, saying that they’re going to be trimming down and streamlining their businesses,” Rep. Gary Ackerman, D-New York, told the chief executive officers of Ford, Chrysler and General Motors at a hearing of the House Financial Services Committee. > “It’s almost like seeing a guy show up at the soup kitchen in high hat and tuxedo. It kind of makes you a little bit suspicious.” > He added, “couldn’t you all have downgraded to first class or jet-pooled or something to get here? It would have at least sent a message that you do get it.” :tup: to that guy. And the auto industries response? > Like many other major corporations, all three have policies requiring their CEOs to travel in private jets for safety reasons. Oh fuck you. Flying commercial is one of the safest modes of transportation available. ---
**Author:** ![civicjim](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/civicjim/32/5297_2.png) [@civicjim](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/civicjim)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 1:17pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/those-against-a-bail-out-read-here/58387/65 "2008-11-19T13:17:56Z")
> [@JayS](#): > > Oh fuck you. Flying commercial is one of the safest modes of transportation available. I don’t think that policy exists do to the possibility of a crash but rather do to the access to that individual. To protect them form say, a disgruntled employee or shareholder. ---
**Author:** ![theblue](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/theblue/32/5074_2.png) [@theblue](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/theblue)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 1:18pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/those-against-a-bail-out-read-here/58387/66 "2008-11-19T13:18:36Z")
:auto industry fail: i’m still undecided on the bailout idea… especially with GM I feel like it’s give a drug addict cash money and requesting they go spend it on treatment and give you the cash back in a few years. ---
**Author:** ![civicjim](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/civicjim/32/5297_2.png) [@civicjim](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/civicjim)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 1:25pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/those-against-a-bail-out-read-here/58387/67 "2008-11-19T13:25:29Z")
Here’s a pretty good article talking about this subject: [http://finance.yahoo.com/banking-budgeting/article/106171/Detroit-Bailout:-7-Key-Questions](http://finance.yahoo.com/banking-budgeting/article/106171/Detroit-Bailout:-7-Key-Questions) ---
**Author:** ![JayS](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/jays/32/15375_2.png) [@JayS](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/JayS)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 1:29pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/those-against-a-bail-out-read-here/58387/68 "2008-11-19T13:29:09Z")
> [@civicjim](#): > > I don’t think that policy exists do to the possibility of a crash but rather do to the access to that individual. To protect them form say, a disgruntled employee or shareholder. Yeah, because it’s so easy to get a weapon on a plane or even in the airport now. Heh. ---
**Author:** ![Blue\_Eyed\_Devil](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/blue_eyed_devil/32/7292_2.png) [@Blue\_Eyed\_Devil](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Blue_Eyed_Devil)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 1:39pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/those-against-a-bail-out-read-here/58387/69 "2008-11-19T13:39:06Z")
I love the jet pooling comment.:tup: LMAO It would be funny to hear someone say, “We jet pool, you know, to save money”. ---
**Author:** ![cougarspeed](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/cougarspeed/32/7468_2.png) [@cougarspeed](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/cougarspeed)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 1:42pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/those-against-a-bail-out-read-here/58387/70 "2008-11-19T13:42:46Z")
Fuck im submitting a bailout bill. Dear congress, I would like money. I still have a bunch of it but if I tell you im going to default and miss payment soon I can has some? KTHNX, cougarspeed You guys thing that will get me some $ i mean I only want like 50-60mil? ---
**Author:** ![JayS](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/jays/32/15375_2.png) [@JayS](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/JayS)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 1:45pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/those-against-a-bail-out-read-here/58387/71 "2008-11-19T13:45:33Z")
> [@cougarspeed](#): > > Fuck im submitting a bailout bill. Dear congress, I would like money. I still have a bunch of it but if I tell you im going to default and miss payment soon I can has some? KTHNX, cougarspeed > > You guys thing that will get me some $ i mean I only want like 50-60mil? I’m thinking about submitting my own bailout plan for $150k. Pay off my mortgage, which will free up some money for the bank to lend to some other schmuck, and have some left over to stimulate the economy with. Figure with an amount so low they might just approve it. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![TurboTSi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/22d042/32.png) [@TurboTSi](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/TurboTSi)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 1:49pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/those-against-a-bail-out-read-here/58387/72 "2008-11-19T13:49:29Z")
![http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_otfwl2zc6Qc/SRe1OUUB32I/AAAAAAAAHq0/7DZwo3Naf-o/s400/wages.bmp](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_otfwl2zc6Qc/SRe1OUUB32I/AAAAAAAAHq0/7DZwo3Naf-o/s400/wages.bmp) The chart above shows [average hourly compensation](http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2007-09-17-gm-uaw_N.htm?csp=34) ([additional data source here](http://chryslerlabortalks07.com/Economic_Data.rtf)) for the Big Three ($73.20) and Toyota ($48.00), compared to average hourly compensation for Management and Professional Workers ($47.57), Manufacturing/Goods Producing ($31.59) and all workers ($28.48), This includes healthcare and other benefits as well as actual wage. Wonder where the problem lies? ---
**Author:** ![MOBOOST4U](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f4b2a3/32.png) [@MOBOOST4U](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/MOBOOST4U)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 1:54pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/those-against-a-bail-out-read-here/58387/73 "2008-11-19T13:54:23Z")
> [@JayS](#): > > I think the reality of not getting a bailout will be somewhere between what the two sides are predicting. > > It won’t be the total chaos RJ is predicting because those numbers that are being put out by the auto industry ignore the simple fact that GM/Ford/Chrysler going out of business will not change the overall DEMAND for cars that much. People will still need cars, so business will increase for the remaining manufactures. In case you haven’t noticed, a lot of “foreign” cars are produced right here on US soil as opposed to your Mexican built “domestic” autos. As that demand goes up at Honda/Toyota/Mazda et al their existing workforce will not be able to meet demand and who better to hire than an experienced GM/Ford/Chrysler employee. They won’t get the same old contracts that were destroying their old employers though. > > It won’t be as painless as the anti-bailout crew is saying either though. Health care benefits for retirees will be a huge issue. I find it funny and worrying at the same time that the very people who elected a president telling us Obamacare would take care of all our health care needs are saying that retirees losing their UAW health care is a major reason to support the bailout. But anyway… there will be costs to the taxpayer one way or another to continue coverage for these retirees and their government guaranteed pension plans. > > There will be additional pain as the consolidation of demand across fewer producers leads to cost savings in manufacturing. They’ll still need X number of workers to build Y number of cars, but with less makes/models/assembly lines/factories you need far less managers. You still need X number of components like radio and tires, but again, you have less different companies involved which means more assembly people and less managers and office support type positions. Unfortunately fat probably needs to be cut here. > > One thing I really don’t buy is the anti-bailout claim that they should just go into chapter 11 bankruptcy protection and that will allow them to shed debt and reorganize and everything will be great. I really doubt many people will be willing to buy a car from a manufacturer in bankruptcy. If GM files chapter 11 I doubt they will ever survive it. > > Bottom line, I’m leaning my support toward some sort of bailout but with extremely strict terms. Things I would have to see to support a bailout of GM: > > 1. Major union concessions > 2. Guarantees that the money would go toward operating expenses that drive the business (R&D, quality control, better materials etc). > 3. Guarantees that the money would not go to stupid ideas like buying Chrysler. GM needs less shitty vehicles and brands, not more. > 4. A well laid out business plan, reviewed by an independent financial review board, showing GM at least has a chance of recovery and eventual payback of this bailout money. > > With out those 4 conditions, let them go under. It’s better to have some pain now and start a recovery than continue dumping money into a doomed company. :bigclap: I dont see how there could be any working solution other than this. Im not saying this will work for sure but imho, any other direction taken with this situation will certainly fail and fail quickly. > [@TrueBlue](#): > > There is a retarded amount of bullshit in this thread. Wow. But their edginess is so cool and profounding… Any idiot can offer criticism and disapproval of any situation but making a 1 sentience clever little zing is easy when you dont post up and defend your own stance… This in not directed to TrueBlue., but you fuckhead trolls… ---
**Author:** ![BigRon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@BigRon](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/BigRon)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 1:55pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/those-against-a-bail-out-read-here/58387/74 "2008-11-19T13:55:08Z")
I love how no one points to the fact that the Japanese have been devaluing the Yen for years to make Toyota successful. But when the US government considers giving GM a loan, people flip out and complain that GM should be profitable on their own like the Japanese companies. Here is a good article from Forbes with some other points: [http://www.forbes.com/2008/11/18/cars-automakers-detroit-biz-man-cz\_jf\_1118flint.html?partner=email](http://www.forbes.com/2008/11/18/cars-automakers-detroit-biz-man-cz_jf_1118flint.html?partner=email) ---
**Author:** ![SideWinderGX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/fbc32d/32.png) [@SideWinderGX](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/SideWinderGX)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 2:18pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/those-against-a-bail-out-read-here/58387/75 "2008-11-19T14:18:29Z")
> [@BigRon](#): > > I love how no one points to the fact that the Japanese have been devaluing the Yen for years to make Toyota successful. But when the US government considers giving GM a loan, people flip out and complain that GM should be profitable on their own like the Japanese companies. > > Here is a good article from Forbes with some other points: > [Sharing The Blame For Detroit Mess](http://www.forbes.com/2008/11/18/cars-automakers-detroit-biz-man-cz_jf_1118flint.html?partner=email) You live in Detroit, your perspective is horribly skewed that the government purposely devalued the yen. Is that why the dollar is so low right now? We’re trying to pull the big 3 out of the gargantuan crevice they’ve dug themselves into? :roflpicard: ---
**Author:** ![misteroman](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/misteroman/32/7423_2.png) [@misteroman](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/misteroman)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 2:20pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/those-against-a-bail-out-read-here/58387/76 "2008-11-19T14:20:40Z")
> [@LZ](#): > > Maybe all the people who work on the GM assembly line who drive vettes and have 250k+ houses should throw in some money to save the company that has been over paying them… How abut Vettes and $700K+ houses:wave:. My thoughts on the Big three buyout is They shouldn’t do it but I think they have too but with extreme restrictions.I think that at the Big 3 expense, they should have a group REALLY getting rid of all the rediculous spending.The private jets are a big one.Waggoner makes $16 mil a year + bonuses,stock options,etc.No person running a company losing that much money should get paid anything close to it. Also I think Bankruptcy should probably be considered if not forced, to dare I say it(remember I’m a UAW member,GM worker),break the contract. Starting Immediately no more hiring at $30 an hr.$12 an hr and $15 max.No bene’s for 90 days and after that maybe a 10% copay or something.I say leave the Retirees alone as they spent 1/2 if not more of their lives there and you can’t just throw them on the street now at 60+ yrs old.Take some of my pay if ya have to,I’m young.I could go on here for hrs but won’t. Believe it or not they actually have gotten rid of LOT of pork out there in the last few yrs. No more janitors:instead of paying ppl $30 an hr to clean bathrooms and sleep 5 hrs a day,an outside company now takes care of all janitorial issues.Those ppl make $12 an hr and are hard workers. Oilers:Instead of sleeping/hiding until someone calls you to come oil their machine,it is part of the machine operators job which it should be anyways. ---
**Author:** ![civicjim](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/civicjim/32/5297_2.png) [@civicjim](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/civicjim)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 2:26pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/those-against-a-bail-out-read-here/58387/77 "2008-11-19T14:26:57Z")
HA! To all you GM haterz that say its just the American companies that suck here’s a nice quote for you via, Motor Trend: > BMW, recently the most profitable full-line automaker, says it can operate in current conditions for two years before running out of cash and shutting down. European automakers are looking for EU bailouts, and automakers in China, the fastest-growing market, say they want government help, too… The upshot of all this is that if the free market continues unabated, and the global recession (or whatever we’re in) marches on for a couple of years, then most every major automaker will have filed for bankruptcy. The biggest problem here is the current economic conditions. It just so happens that the US feels everything first and the world follows. I hope all you import humpers bash BMW and Toyota just as hard when they file chapter 11 also! ---
**Author:** ![Joe](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/joe/32/7219_2.png) [@Joe](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Joe)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 2:40pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/those-against-a-bail-out-read-here/58387/78 "2008-11-19T14:40:16Z")
…waiting for the fucking idiots to say BMW puts out a shitty product and thats why they’re in trouble… :picard: ---
**Author:** ![theblue](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/theblue/32/5074_2.png) [@theblue](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/theblue)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 2:43pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/those-against-a-bail-out-read-here/58387/79 "2008-11-19T14:43:56Z")
all the car companies are going to cry regardless of how they’re really doing because they don’t want to miss out on a big cash handout… GM however, really is in trouble because of their shitty products which are not desired along with horrible management and bloodsucking unions. ---
**Author:** ![MOBOOST4U](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f4b2a3/32.png) [@MOBOOST4U](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/MOBOOST4U)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 2:46pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/those-against-a-bail-out-read-here/58387/80 "2008-11-19T14:46:42Z")
> [@theblue](#): > > GM however, really is in trouble beacuse of it’s shitty products which are not desired. Thats not entirely true. Although their products are not superior… they are no longer “shitty.” “Shitty” GM products was 1990-2002. They are starting to sort out their shit with these cars… But everyone can agree that the damage had already been done. [Previous page](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/those-against-a-bail-out-read-here/58387.md?page=3) [Next page](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/those-against-a-bail-out-read-here/58387.md?page=5)