# why the big 3 failed **URL:** \ **Category:** NYSpeed Automotive\ **Created:** [September 13, 2009, 2:27pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/why-the-big-3-failed/73460 "2009-09-13T14:27:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Karter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e480ec/32.png) [@Karter](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Karter)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2009, 2:27pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/why-the-big-3-failed/73460/1 "2009-09-13T14:27:49Z")
I was reading another thread on another forum about the cars program and I pressed my argument about union auto workers again. The unions are the problem, always were the problem always will be the problem. Now before a union humper comes in, or worse a worker, just ready some fast numbers. 200,000 people employed by the big 3 on average, its probabaly more, could be less due to economy whatever union wage ranges between 30 - 70$ an hr, so lets call it 50$ an hr for arguments sake. 200,000 x 50 x 40 = $400,000,000 A WEEK, without benefits, overtime ect. Now hire them all at a SANE WAGE. 200,000 x 15 x 40 = 120,000,000 a week 280,000,000 a week in savings, not counting over time, or benefits. 14,560,000,000 a year, in savings by not paying the union workers insane wages. Food for thought I guess. ---
**Author:** ![snowracer101](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@snowracer101](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/snowracer101)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2009, 2:30pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/why-the-big-3-failed/73460/2 "2009-09-13T14:30:54Z")
> [@Just Karter"](#): > > I was reading another thread on another forum about the cars program and I pressed my argument about union auto workers again. > > The unions are the problem, always were the problem always will be the problem. Now before a union humper comes in, or worse a worker, just ready some fast numbers. > > 200,000 people employed by the big 3 on average, its probabaly more, could be less due to economy whatever > > union wage ranges between 30 - 70$ an hr, so lets call it 50$ an hr for arguments sake. > > 200,000 x 50 x 40 = $400,000,000 A WEEK, without benefits, overtime ect. > > Now hire them all at a SANE WAGE. > > 200,000 x 15 x 40 = 120,000,000 a week > 380,000,000 a week in savings, not counting over time, or benefits. > > 19,760,000,000 a year, in savings by not paying the union workers insane wages. Food for thought I guess. this is well known ---
**Author:** ![Karter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e480ec/32.png) [@Karter](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Karter)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2009, 2:31pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/why-the-big-3-failed/73460/3 "2009-09-13T14:31:44Z")
> [@sedlmeier101](#): > > this is well known Most people don’t bother with the numbers, I guess I could have just posted, I just accidentally 20 billion dollars, the whole thing. ---
**Author:** ![double\_j](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/double_j/32/7380_2.png) [@double\_j](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/double_j)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2009, 2:32pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/why-the-big-3-failed/73460/4 "2009-09-13T14:32:49Z")
It’s oversimplifying the problem, but I see your point. ---
**Author:** ![08GT500](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/08gt500/32/5417_2.png) [@08GT500](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/08GT500)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2009, 2:35pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/why-the-big-3-failed/73460/5 "2009-09-13T14:35:40Z")
So you propose that auto workers make less than 30k a year? ---
**Author:** ![Avatar](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/avatar/32/5076_2.png) [@Avatar](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Avatar)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2009, 2:41pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/why-the-big-3-failed/73460/6 "2009-09-13T14:41:45Z")
It was a wasteful industry. No surprise ---
**Author:** ![AngryHero](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/angryhero/32/7495_2.png) [@AngryHero](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/AngryHero)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2009, 2:47pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/why-the-big-3-failed/73460/7 "2009-09-13T14:47:30Z")
Iv worked inside the plants myself.Those guys give unions a bad name period.To bad everyone bases the useless auto worker as the union standard.Most arent like that.They dont deserve the money at all. ---
**Author:** ![Karter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e480ec/32.png) [@Karter](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Karter)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2009, 2:49pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/why-the-big-3-failed/73460/8 "2009-09-13T14:49:26Z")
> [@AngryHero](#): > > Iv worked inside the plants myself.Those guys give unions a bad name period.To bad everyone bases the useless auto worker as the union standard.Most arent like that.They dont deserve the money at all. You ever seen a state or city job? 1 - 2 guys working 5 guys standing around leaning on shovels. They pile 5 guys in a truck to go look for road kill, unions gave themselves the bad image. there isn an exception electricians, contractors, tend to not be lazy as hell, but its not enough to overhsadow ---
**Author:** ![AngryHero](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/angryhero/32/7495_2.png) [@AngryHero](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/AngryHero)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2009, 3:08pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/why-the-big-3-failed/73460/9 "2009-09-13T15:08:41Z")
> [@Just Karter](#): > > You ever seen a state or city job? 1 - 2 guys working 5 guys standing around leaning on shovels. > > They pile 5 guys in a truck to go look for road kill, unions gave themselves the bad image. > > there isn an exception electricians, contractors, tend to not be lazy as hell, but its not enough to overhsadow Yeah i know.Its hard to convince anyone there are unions that are good.Mostly contracting. ---
**Author:** ![fiend540](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bcef8e/32.png) [@fiend540](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/fiend540)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2009, 4:54pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/why-the-big-3-failed/73460/10 "2009-09-13T16:54:49Z")
> [@Just Karter](#): > > You ever seen a state or city job? 1 - 2 guys working 5 guys standing around leaning on shovels. > > They pile 5 guys in a truck to go look for road kill, unions gave themselves the bad image. > > there isn an exception electricians, contractors, tend to not be lazy as hell, but its not enough to overhsadow You can’t compare State Union workers to other Construction Unions ---
**Author:** ![rskrause](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/rskrause/32/7367_2.png) [@rskrause](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/rskrause)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2009, 5:22pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/why-the-big-3-failed/73460/11 "2009-09-13T17:22:05Z")
Public employee unions piss me off no end. Worst thing about WNY, IMNSHO. As far as the big three, the management has a poor track record as well and the government had there own destructive role to play. But when the writing was on the wall, the unions persevered in their old mid 20th century ways and the rest is history. Back to the public unions, their bad behavior exists because of their “bosses”, the Pols. We in turn elect them. It’s kind of a cluster fuck. ---
**Author:** ![misteroman](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/misteroman/32/7423_2.png) [@misteroman](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/misteroman)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2009, 5:32pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/why-the-big-3-failed/73460/12 "2009-09-13T17:32:42Z")
> [@Just Karter"](#): > > I was reading another thread on another forum about the cars program and I pressed my argument about union auto workers again. > > The unions are the problem, always were the problem always will be the problem. Now before a union humper comes in, or worse a worker, just ready some fast numbers. > > 200,000 people employed by the big 3 on average, its probabaly more, could be less due to economy whatever > > union wage ranges between 30 - 70$ an hr, so lets call it 50$ an hr for arguments sake. > > 200,000 x 50 x 40 = $400,000,000 A WEEK, without benefits, overtime ect. > > Now hire them all at a SANE WAGE. > > 200,000 x 15 x 40 = 120,000,000 a week > 380,000,000 a week in savings, not counting over time, or benefits. > > 19,760,000,000 a year, in savings by not paying the union workers insane wages. Food for thought I guess. 400,000,000-120,000,000=380,000,000. LOL sorry union guy here, had to point that out. ---
**Author:** ![Karter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e480ec/32.png) [@Karter](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Karter)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2009, 5:53pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/why-the-big-3-failed/73460/13 "2009-09-13T17:53:44Z")
it would be 280, how did I not catch that. ugh firs tpost edited, they accidentally 15 billion, the whole thing. ---
**Author:** ![Boomin99GT](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/boomin99gt/32/7306_2.png) [@Boomin99GT](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Boomin99GT)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2009, 6:15pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/why-the-big-3-failed/73460/14 "2009-09-13T18:15:33Z")
I see what you’re saying and I agree to an extent but using $15 for your example is just nuts haha. ---
**Author:** ![Karter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e480ec/32.png) [@Karter](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Karter)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2009, 6:17pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/why-the-big-3-failed/73460/15 "2009-09-13T18:17:50Z")
> [@Boomin99GT](#): > > I see what you’re saying and I agree to an extent but using $15 for your example is just nuts haha. id do any job for 15$ an hr, if I was guirnteed 40 hrs + health care. thats more than enough to happily live and still dump 10k a year into a bank account for savings. ---
**Author:** ![turbociv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dfb087/32.png) [@turbociv](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/turbociv)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2009, 6:18pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/why-the-big-3-failed/73460/16 "2009-09-13T18:18:47Z")
Im curious as to what union workers were makeing $70hr? lol. maybe for tripple time for working on a holiday. the average union worker made like mid to high $20’s. The skilled labor made low to mid $30s an hour. What killed the big 3 was there pension plans. And thats not even what killed them, it was poor management of the NON union workers with there gigantic million dollar bonuses. You take one ceo’s bonus away you can pay 50 laborers for a year at 50k a year. So im realy missing your point. Union labor wages are a very small part of the problem but nice try. ---
**Author:** ![66impalass](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/66impalass/32/7429_2.png) [@66impalass](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/66impalass)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2009, 6:29pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/why-the-big-3-failed/73460/17 "2009-09-13T18:29:19Z")
> [@turbociv](#): > > Im curious as to what union workers were makeing $70hr? lol. maybe for tripple time for working on a holiday. the average union worker made like mid to high $20’s. The skilled labor made low to mid $30s an hour. > > What killed the big 3 was there pension plans. And thats not even what killed them, it was poor management of the NON union workers with there gigantic million dollar bonuses. You take one ceo’s bonus away you can pay 50 laborers for a year at 50k a year. So im realy missing your point. Union labor wages are a very small part of the problem but nice try. the average union employee cost GM 74.xx and hour. Where if you look at the Toyota plants in the south they average employee costs them $48.xx and hour… People keep blah blah blahing about the CEO bonus or wage, the fact that that is actually only a fraction of a percent of what union is costing GM ---
**Author:** ![turbociv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dfb087/32.png) [@turbociv](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/turbociv)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2009, 6:36pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/why-the-big-3-failed/73460/18 "2009-09-13T18:36:39Z")
> [@66impalass](#): > > the average union employee cost GM 74.xx and hour. Where if you look at the Toyota plants in the south they average employee costs them $48.xx and hour… > > People keep blah blah blahing about the CEO bonus or wage, the fact that that is actually only a fraction of a percent of what union is costing GM that price is because of retired employees collecting pensions and getting benefits. Thats not the current union workers fault. You realy think CEO’s deserve millions of dollars in bonuses with the constant decline of sales and shitty selections in vehicles? there is alot more at fault here then just a union guy making $26/hr. Nobody twisted anyones arms for competitive wages and a good pension plans. The big3 did it to themselves. ---
**Author:** ![66impalass](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/66impalass/32/7429_2.png) [@66impalass](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/66impalass)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2009, 6:44pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/why-the-big-3-failed/73460/19 "2009-09-13T18:44:48Z")
> [@turbociv](#): > > that price is because of retired employees collecting pensions and getting benefits. Thats not the current union workers fault. You realy think CEO’s deserve millions of dollars in bonuses with the constant decline of sales and shitty selections in vehicles? there is alot more at fault here then just a union guy making $26/hr. Nobody twisted anyones arms for competitive wages and a good pension plans. The big3 did it to themselves. The union aimed for a lot including required annual raises, not merit based, especially well above average wages for nonskilled workers. It is not the CEOs that are killing the companies, it IS the union that is costing them. My favorite is when the unions refused to make any concessions when they asking them to take salary freezes to keep the company afloat. The shitty vehicles are a direct resault of the cost of union employees, and the money being taken from R&D and put towards them. There is no reason that someone that spends all day tightening the same four bolts should be making $26 an hour. EDIT: And current union employees are directly to blame, they will be collecting the same benefits that current retirees are collecting, they are in no way a solution to the problem. ---
**Author:** ![ImportMuscle](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/importmuscle/32/7615_2.png) [@ImportMuscle](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/ImportMuscle)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2009, 6:54pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/why-the-big-3-failed/73460/20 "2009-09-13T18:54:25Z")
but, but they’re supposed to make insane amounts of money to do repetitive line work. its the American dream :rolljerk: [Next page](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/why-the-big-3-failed/73460.md?page=2)