# Would you like to SEE how UNIONS affect overhead costs? **URL:** \ **Category:** NYSpeed Off Topic\ **Created:** [September 27, 2007, 9:12am UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/would-you-like-to-see-how-unions-affect-overhead-costs/36042 "2007-09-27T09:12:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Zer0DazE](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/zer0daze/32/7624_2.png) [@Zer0DazE](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Zer0DazE)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2007, 1:54pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/would-you-like-to-see-how-unions-affect-overhead-costs/36042/21 "2007-09-27T13:54:51Z")
[quote=“bobee,post:20,topic:36042"”] Everyone sure is bitching about unions causing all sorts of financial problems for various companies, but not once did I see anything mentioned about how upper management is grossly overpaid. Look at many of the companies who filed for bankruptcy protection and you will also see them asking judges to cut union salaries, pensions and benefits. Then they ask the same judge to allow them to offer bonuses and raises to keep the upper management. The workers suffer, ceo’s get rich and everyone complains about the unions being greedy. Blame both sides for the mess the US automakers are in right now. GM, Ford and Chrysler all signed those various contracts throughout the years. People bitch about American car quality, but who’s fault is it when an alternator goes bad in a couple of months-- the **guy** installing it on the assembly line or the wetback who built the thing in **Mexico**? Unions were started to protect workers from dangerous workplaces, harassment and discrimination from management,and to provide workers with fair wages and compensation for the job they do. Yes changes need to be made, but it should be by both sides. :blah::blah: [/quote] you are a fool. the reason shitty parts are used for assembly is the union. you cant afford quality parts and 25 and hour for labor that should get half of that. blaming the executives with probably 8+ years of college and god knows what other schooling/training they have had. yeah, thats it. its the educated mans fault not the guy who uses the term “wetbacks”. ---
**Author:** ![AngryHero](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/angryhero/32/7495_2.png) [@AngryHero](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/AngryHero)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2007, 1:58pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/would-you-like-to-see-how-unions-affect-overhead-costs/36042/22 "2007-09-27T13:58:21Z")
Im a union electrician. I worked at Gm about 2 months ago for a shutdown of an assembly line.They dont do shit there and are HUGELY OVERPAID.Im all for unions since im in one but i believe you should be payed for your ability ectect.These guys seriously do nothing.A high school kid could do most of the shit they do ---
**Author:** ![LAFENGAS](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/lafengas/32/7573_2.png) [@LAFENGAS](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/LAFENGAS)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2007, 2:04pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/would-you-like-to-see-how-unions-affect-overhead-costs/36042/23 "2007-09-27T14:04:14Z")
[quote=“bobee,post:20,topic:36042"”] snip :blah::blah: [/quote] haha… you’re funny. i think i like you noob. ---
**Author:** ![JustinH](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9fc29f/32.png) [@JustinH](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/JustinH)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2007, 2:04pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/would-you-like-to-see-how-unions-affect-overhead-costs/36042/24 "2007-09-27T14:04:40Z")
I sell widgets to a major company associated with GM on a monthly basis. They blow money so fast its unreal. Basically I can write them a bill for whatever I want, and they will just automatically process a payment at the end of the 2nd month just like clockwork. The other side of the spectrum, I work for the largest banking institution in the world, and they are the largest because they cut corners, and pay people absolutely nothing. Much of the staff is hourly temp workers with no benefits, and just above 10 dollar an hour wages. ---
**Author:** ![bobee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac8455/32.png) [@bobee](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/bobee)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2007, 3:15pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/would-you-like-to-see-how-unions-affect-overhead-costs/36042/25 "2007-09-27T15:15:45Z")
Parts are produced out of country for numerous reason such as cheap labor, taxes, no laws abouts chemical use and disposal, no “OSHA” type rules and really just to take advantage of underdeveloped countries and their people. More and more of these plants out of the US are going union just because of the bullshit that they are now putting up with. So who is the fool do some research and see. I am not blaming management, I was just stating a fact also most senior managers have no clue how to run or work the line. I agree that they have simplified the assembly line to the point of just about anyone being able to do it, but the wages they are getting now were set up long before these new assembly lines were put into production. THE current fight now is more or less over skyrocketing health care and making sure they take care of the retirees like they said they would. **GM’s CEO last 5 years total compensation…$25.75 million dollars** ( plus his previous 25 years of gm salary) ---
**Author:** ![Nikuk](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/nikuk/32/7254_2.png) [@Nikuk](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Nikuk)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2007, 4:12pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/would-you-like-to-see-how-unions-affect-overhead-costs/36042/26 "2007-09-27T16:12:19Z")
I haven’t read your posts simply because the first couple of lines belie your intelligence. But, all I have to say to you Bobee is that you should stop crying about the CEO being far more valuable then yourself. If line “techs” are making $25/hr, and costing an additional $25/hr in legacy waste, then one year of CEO salary equates to 50 line “techs”, upto 2080 hours. You’d be extremely lucky if you were worth 2% of what wagoner is to the company. :lol: Lastly, in alot of case, CEO pay is hugely impacted by options grants… meaning that the company has to perform well for at least a few years (option period) for the options to be worth ‘as much’. Line “techs” collect their inflated paychecks on friday and go home to give the wife money to shop at walmart. Pardon my generalizations misterioman$$$ and others who actually work. ---
**Author:** ![Blue\_Eyed\_Devil](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/blue_eyed_devil/32/7292_2.png) [@Blue\_Eyed\_Devil](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Blue_Eyed_Devil)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2007, 5:22pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/would-you-like-to-see-how-unions-affect-overhead-costs/36042/27 "2007-09-27T17:22:12Z")
^ Further more, many times they are stock options. Its not like they just wheel in a cart load of cash to his office. If the company does well the CEO does well if he buys the stock and the company performs. What is the motivation for a line worker to do well, especially when he is totally protected by the union? ---
**Author:** ![Carnut](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/carnut/32/7590_2.png) [@Carnut](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Carnut)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2007, 5:23pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/would-you-like-to-see-how-unions-affect-overhead-costs/36042/28 "2007-09-27T17:23:12Z")
I think it’s funny that every time I have been watching this thread soo is AWDrifter 😛 Management makes it possible for you to have a job, you in turn, for a paycheck, make sure that the company stays productive and thus profitable. So that you can come back next week and work. GOD I wish they taught this in grade school. It would be amazing to see what these people would do in a some eastern european countries where work is non-existant or India and China where there are 100 people that would kill to fill your position. You got a job, you gotta do it well. /thread. ---
**Author:** ![JayS](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/jays/32/15375_2.png) [@JayS](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/JayS)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2007, 5:49pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/would-you-like-to-see-how-unions-affect-overhead-costs/36042/29 "2007-09-27T17:49:32Z")
[quote=“bobee,post:25,topic:36042"”] **GM’s CEO last 5 years total compensation…$25.75 million dollars** ( plus his previous 25 years of gm salary) [/quote] God you’re ignorant. Cry about executive salaries? They make up what, maybe .01% of GM’s workforce? GM’s health care costs: > Its health care costs in 2004 were $5.2 billion, with $4 billion going to retirees, according to GM. Source: [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/20/AR2005102002078.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/20/AR2005102002078.html) So they spent 200 TIMES more on health care alone than they did on their CEO’s salary. The unions are costing the american auto industry 1.5 to 2 BILLION to pay people to do nothing. No, I’m not talking about the guy with the easy job who we joke about doing nothing, I mean someone who actually is paid to sit there and do absolutely nothing. It’s called “the jobs bank”: [http://www.wsjclassroomedition.com/archive/06may/auto2\_jobsbank.htm](http://www.wsjclassroomedition.com/archive/06may/auto2_jobsbank.htm) I’m having trouble finding a rough number of how much union job salaries add up to at GM, but I’m willing to bet it’s about 10000 times more than upper management are making for the simple reason there are so many more union employees. EDIT: Nevermind, I did all this research once before, here: [http://www.nyspeed.com/forums/showpost.php?p=412638&postcount=28](http://www.nyspeed.com/forums/showpost.php?p=412638&postcount=28) > [@JayS](#): > > First off, please pull the union bullhorn out of your ass. I am sick and tired of hearing union mouthpieces talk about the problem being a few executives with million dollar salaries. > > GM has a US unionized workforce of approximately 111000. That’s just US, just unionized people ([Source](http://money.cnn.com/2005/06/07/news/fortune500/gm_closings/)). They make on average $27/hr, or $56160 a year if they work 40/week and NO OVERTIME ([Source](http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2005601110463)). I’m sure a lot take the overtime, because the three I know that work for GM local sure do. > > So, 111000 people x 56160 = $6,216,000,000 > > Since most people don’t see numbers that big often, lets spell it out. > **Six Billion, Two-hundred and sixteen-million dollars** in unionized salary. And that’s not even counting health care, pension and other benefits. **AND NO OVERTIME** , which we all know is used by most people working at GM with great cost to the company. > > The article I found from 1/06 has the CEO, Rick Wagoner, making 2.2 million, plus a bonus and “other compensation” of 2.6 million in 2004, as well as 400000 shares of stock. Sure, it’s a lot of money, but barely a drop in the bucket compared to what blue collar is costing GM. Even with high salaries there simply aren’t enough “superpowers” at GM to make it add up. Could management be cut? Sure. But it’s not the root of the problem. > > Members of the board of directors receive $200,000 a year paid in cash and stock for their work, plus up to $30,000 for chairing a board committee or being a member of the audit committee. Again, simply not enough people to add up to anything like the unionized total. > > So please, stop trying to blame management salaries for this problem. > > Finally, the statement of “the company signed the contract” show’s exactly why GM will probably never recover. Unions managed to get these honeypot contracts back when the big three had no competition, and could afford to give out these contracts. But now unions refuse to give up anything without strikes and lawsuits, despite the fact that everyone knows GM/Ford will never be able to compete with Toyota/Honda without major changes. I believe the word is pwned. ---
**Author:** ![Carnut](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/carnut/32/7590_2.png) [@Carnut](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Carnut)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2007, 6:17pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/would-you-like-to-see-how-unions-affect-overhead-costs/36042/30 "2007-09-27T18:17:19Z")
[quote=“JayS,post:29,topic:36042"”] God you’re ignorant. Cry about executive salaries? They make up what, maybe .01% of GM’s workforce? GM’s health care costs: Source: [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/20/AR2005102002078.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/20/AR2005102002078.html) So they spent 200 TIMES more on health care alone than they did on their CEO’s salary. The unions are costing the american auto industry 1.5 to 2 BILLION to pay people to do nothing. No, I’m not talking about the guy with the easy job who we joke about doing nothing, I mean someone who actually is paid to sit there and do absolutely nothing. It’s called “the jobs bank”: [http://www.wsjclassroomedition.com/archive/06may/auto2\_jobsbank.htm](http://www.wsjclassroomedition.com/archive/06may/auto2_jobsbank.htm) I’m having trouble finding a rough number of how much union job salaries add up to at GM, but I’m willing to bet it’s about 10000 times more than upper management are making for the simple reason there are so many more union employees. EDIT: Nevermind, I did all this research once before, here: [http://www.nyspeed.com/forums/showpost.php?p=412638&postcount=28](http://www.nyspeed.com/forums/showpost.php?p=412638&postcount=28) I believe the word is pwned. [/quote] Bravo sir. ---
**Author:** ![Bigairskier1580](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/bigairskier1580/32/7612_2.png) [@Bigairskier1580](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Bigairskier1580)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2007, 6:37pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/would-you-like-to-see-how-unions-affect-overhead-costs/36042/31 "2007-09-27T18:37:50Z")
A chimpanzee could do the same work, easily, and they get paid big bucks to do it, and are given healthcare and full retirement for the rest of their lives. I’d say that outlines the problem pretty well. ---
**Author:** ![SVT3945](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/svt3945/32/7409_2.png) [@SVT3945](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/SVT3945)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2007, 7:05pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/would-you-like-to-see-how-unions-affect-overhead-costs/36042/32 "2007-09-27T19:05:00Z")
[quote=“bobee,post:25,topic:36042"”] Parts are produced out of country for numerous reason such as cheap labor, taxes, no laws abouts chemical use and disposal, no “OSHA” type rules and really just to take advantage of underdeveloped countries and their people. More and more of these plants out of the US are going union just because of the bullshit that they are now putting up with. So who is the fool do some research and see. I am not blaming management, I was just stating a fact also most senior managers have no clue how to run or work the line. I agree that they have simplified the assembly line to the point of just about anyone being able to do it, but the wages they are getting now were set up long before these new assembly lines were put into production. THE current fight now is more or less over skyrocketing health care and making sure they take care of the retirees like they said they would. **GM’s CEO last 5 years total compensation…$25.75 million dollars** ( plus his previous 25 years of gm salary) [/quote] 3billion \> 300 million ---
**Author:** ![Nikuk](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/nikuk/32/7254_2.png) [@Nikuk](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Nikuk)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2007, 7:15pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/would-you-like-to-see-how-unions-affect-overhead-costs/36042/33 "2007-09-27T19:15:51Z")
Their job: to do nothing. This is the Jobs Bank, a two-decade-old program in which nearly 15,000 auto workers continue to get paid after their companies stop needing them. To earn wages and benefits that often top $100,000 a year, the workers must perform some company-approved activity. Many volunteer or go back to school. The rest clock time in the rubber room or something like it. It is called the rubber room, Mr. Mellon says, because “a few days in there makes you go crazy.” The Jobs Bank at GM and other U.S. auto companies including Ford Motor is likely to cost around $1.4 billion to $2 billion this year. The programs, which are up for renewal next year when union contracts expire, have become a symbol of why Detroit struggles even as Japanese auto makers with big U.S. operations prosper. :lol: :ugh: [http://www.wsjclassroomedition.com/archive/06may/auto2\_jobsbank.htm](http://www.wsjclassroomedition.com/archive/06may/auto2_jobsbank.htm) ---
**Author:** ![JayS](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/jays/32/15375_2.png) [@JayS](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/JayS)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2007, 7:56pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/would-you-like-to-see-how-unions-affect-overhead-costs/36042/34 "2007-09-27T19:56:53Z")
^ Stop stealing my links 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Fry](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/fry/32/7284_2.png) [@Fry](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Fry)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2007, 8:36pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/would-you-like-to-see-how-unions-affect-overhead-costs/36042/35 "2007-09-27T20:36:15Z")
The sad part is that the UAW gives all unions bad names because they’ve abused their power so hard for so long. To the opposite effect, the union at American Brass is working hand-in-hand with upper management there to find ways to increase productivity to reach their parent-company’s mandated profit level to keep the place open without having to slash jobs. :tup: ---
**Author:** ![Nikuk](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/nikuk/32/7254_2.png) [@Nikuk](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Nikuk)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2007, 9:57pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/would-you-like-to-see-how-unions-affect-overhead-costs/36042/36 "2007-09-27T21:57:18Z")
[quote=“BikerFry,post:35,topic:36042"”] To the opposite effect, the union at American Brass is working hand-in-hand with upper management there to find ways to increase productivity to reach their parent-company’s mandated profit level to keep the place open without having to slash jobs. :tup: [/quote] THERE IS NO PLACE FOR SUCH LOGIC IN THIS THREAD ---
**Author:** ![97\_B18b1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/9/cdc98d/32.png) [@97\_B18b1](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/97_B18b1)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2007, 10:20pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/would-you-like-to-see-how-unions-affect-overhead-costs/36042/37 "2007-09-27T22:20:55Z")
I woked at curtis screw for 2 years. Some of you may know the place but for those of you who dont GM amounts to about 40% of their bussiness. Curtis screw is also UAW local 55. I thought it was hilarious listening to every single one of them bitch and moan about our customers up and down for sending parts over to china when the whole reason the parts were going to china was because of our operators ridiculous wages causing the prices of our parts up. Its funny how all the operators thought operating a machine was some sort of super rare talent and they were doing the company a favor by showing up to work every day. ---
**Author:** ![airhead](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/airhead/32/7471_2.png) [@airhead](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/airhead)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2007, 10:49pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/would-you-like-to-see-how-unions-affect-overhead-costs/36042/38 "2007-09-27T22:49:29Z")
My uncle has worked at the Ford plant forever, and if I remember right, they were paying him 95% of his pay to NOT come to work. They just didn’t need him. He would stay home most of the summer laying by the pool or getting ripped at the golf course. When the retirement deals came out last year, he thought about it and declined, he didn’t want to give up a job like that. Same uncle who borrowed my dad’s butter yellow 1983 AMC Eagle wagon to drive to work for a week, even though my dad offered him his '02 Civic. He wouldn’t drive the Honda, but the Eagle with the hatch duct-taped shut was just fine:mamoru: ---
**Author:** ![Roush97](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/roush97/32/7424_2.png) [@Roush97](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Roush97)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2007, 11:04pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/would-you-like-to-see-how-unions-affect-overhead-costs/36042/39 "2007-09-27T23:04:12Z")
UAW gives unions like mine a bad name. I work for the glazing union and have to do a 4 year appretinceship program to make top rate of $24 a hour and we get $6 a hour on top for fringe benefits. ---
**Author:** ![Carnut](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forums.speedlife.net/carnut/32/7590_2.png) [@Carnut](https://forums.speedlife.net/u/Carnut)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2007, 11:07pm UTC](https://forums.speedlife.net/t/would-you-like-to-see-how-unions-affect-overhead-costs/36042/40 "2007-09-27T23:07:26Z")
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