GM loses $1.1 billion in the third quarter

NYSpeed Automotive
41

Excellent post (from a fellow engineer :wink: ). I’ve gotten in some huge arguements with union guys on LS2.com over this.

The fact of the matter is mfg workers expect to be able to live a cushy middle class life as a blue collar worker and the unions provide that. Whereas if I want to make more money and job security, I’ll go off and get another degree, they don’t want to do that. They want to pull in 6 figures working on an assembly line with a guaranteed position. I don’t understand why anyone under 40 nowdays would look to persue a career in manufacturing.

I work in a non-union MFG plant, and those guys still complain on end about engineers or managers making more money (“I work just as hard”). I tell them if they want more money then take some classes and get a degree and move up. It’s never too late - there were quite a few folks in their 40s at my college persuing an engineering degree with me since they realized there was more of a future there.

42

unions were a good idea 70 years ago. nowadays they ARE nearsighted to the situation at hand. yes the gov’t should step in and reform healthcare, not just for the auto industry, but everyone! they are bleeding the country dry (federal govt too with medicare) but they dont care because they fill enough politicials pockets with cash. the media doesnt help AT ALL with their incessant shots at the big 3. but the union has gotten so big with power they think they can have their cake and eat it too and theyre “entitled” to all these wonderful things. thats not the case anymore in modern buisness.

im sure no one read what i post above from JD Power about long term reliability because it was too long and didnt contain any “your gay” or smily faces in it to attract attention…but domestics are not crap, they are more dependable than many foreign cars.

most of you need to realize, you are a TINY portion of the auto market. most people on here want fast small sporty cars. well those dont make money for auto companies and they dont sell in large numbers either.

but what do i know…my father has only worked at GM for 34 years. i was only an engineer at Ford for 3 years, watched my 401k get cut because they couldnt afford to match it. PAYED a portion of my health care. and watched them lay off 2000+ other salary employees while the union just keeps asking for more money and benefits. kinda irks me a bit you could say as it was one of the big reasons i left the auto industry for something else. while my father, a typical hard headed UAW worker, whines they shouldnt have to give anything up, its the execs fault the companys doing bad.

43

saying buying an import supports the economy the same as buying a domestic is just as nearsighted as a union member saying he deserves $30/hr for screwing in a bolt in every engine that goes by. I’ve already stated this a million times and knowbody can deny that therer are a FEW import factories in the US and certainly regardless of where the car came from you have a small mess of local dealers, parts boys, and shit. BUT the investment in local eceonomies are no where on the scale of the domestic big three. certainly they purchase parts from some outside sources but about half are from within the US, but that just little nickel and dime stuff. You never really realize how much money one factory can pump in the economy until you work in one to see what happens. Dozens of local vendors for tooling, machining services, materials, machine builders, shipping, storage facilities, transportation, etc. Then there is the in flux of employees that dump their earnings into the local entertainment, restuarants, outlet stores, etc.

Now that’s one factory. Now how about the taxes payed to state and federal, donations, and reliefs funds. American corporations do a lot for america, on a much larger scale than any foreign competitor does for us. The foriegn competitors do the same but for there own country.

It’s funny how narrow minded people are these days. Seems nobody looks at the whole picture just the smallest section that concearns themselves, this goes for consumers buying imported goods, unions strangling the companies they work for. It’s just the US in general, the general population has become so self centered and numb to ignorance that there is no hope for the US anymore.

Certainly none of us paved the roads laid down before us but we do have the choice to take what turns we choose. In other words we have the options to change direction when we choose.

Now those who no me, know that I’m an “white-collar” engineer/manager for a unionized company. After working here for a little over five years I have seen it all. I certainly agree that there are some outragous wages for what a majority of the work force. There is certainly a lot of ignorance, and honestly $8-12 is a more appropraite wages for what a majority of these people do. A good amount of the skilled trades do deserve what they get payed for, but too many take advantage of the situation and do absolutely nothing. See unions make it virtually impossible to fire people so the supervisors get feed up and the squeky wheel gets the grease. On the good note there are a few union members that have their head on their shoulder and realize they have it good and respect the company. These are also the few that work hard and are constantly trying to improve equipment and wanna see the company do well.

As far as myself not being able to do “work”, yeah its annoying but whatcha going to do? I do my fair amount of work, and wrench turning. Once the guys respect you, it doesn’t matter. A lot times they like your help, because its just helping them.

As far as unions, they really aren’t needed anymore. No longer are people required to do work in unsafe conditions as they were in the early 20th century. With all the labor laws and such the government basically took care of worker fairness and such. If people wanna live a middle class life or make a good buck then work hard and do what needs to be done to get to where you wanna be, there should be no free ride regardless of unoins, sex, race or whatever excuses people have.

44

and for all the it doesn’t matter import/domestic folks out there that obviously do no research here’s some quick reading and facts of how domestics effects the American economy: (from '04)

[left]During its nearly 100 years, General Motors has been an enormous part of life in North America, while playing a huge role in both the North American and global economies. Ironically, organizations that have survived and prospered for that long are often taken for granted – both internally and externally – for the range of benefits they provide every day in improving and strengthening our way of life.

In light of non-North American competitors coming here and drawing attention to their good deeds in the American economy, we cannot overlook the fact that their contributions pale when compared to those of General Motors. So the next time someone tells you that there’s no difference between GM and all the others, remember the facts:
[/left]

  • Every day, about one million people earn their living by helping GM build and sell cars in North America.

  • Every month, 457,000 retirees and their spouses count on GM for pension checks. More than 1.1 million people receive health care benefits from GM.

  • The domestic parts content for GM vehicles sold in North America is 82%. In contrast, Toyota’s is less than half that, roughly 40%, while its profitable Lexus brand’s domestic content is a mere 3.4%. For Nissan vehicles sold in North America, domestic content is about 38%, while Infiniti vehicles contain only 5.2% of parts produced here.

  • In the past five years, GM has invested more than $20 billion in the U.S. GM’s contribution to the U.S. Gross National Product is about 4 times that of Toyota.

  • GM is committed to the environment. In 2000 and 2003, our global facilities reduced total waste generation by 13.7%, or 605,000 metric tons. From 1992 through 2002, GM facilities have reduced air emissions by 46%. Over the past eight years, GM has reduced its water consumption in North America by 37%, equal to the amount of water used by 75,000 North American households in a year. From 1995 through the end of 2003, GM reduced its North American energy use by 22%, which is the equivalent of the energy requirements of 142,000 homes for one year.

  • The domestic auto manufacturers (GM, Ford and the Chrysler operation of DaimlerChrysler) manufacture 75% of all cars and trucks built in the United States. And the domestic manufacturers employ almost 90 percent of all American auto workers. The domestic manufacturers currently have about 470,000 direct employees in the United States, nearly 10 times as many as the Japanese transplants, who employ 49,000. Including our supplier and distribution reach, GM, Ford and Chrysler provide 23 jobs for every 100 vehicles sold in the United States – nearly twice as many as our Japanese counterparts.

  • More than 85% of the total investment in the U.S. auto industry since 1980 has been made by domestic manufacturers. Combined, we spend more than $16 billion on research and development each year – more than any other industry.
    [left]While competition is healthy for any industry, it’s important always to keep it in perspective and remember who and what we are. For close to 100 years, General Motors, with your help, has been an integral part of the evolution and growth of not only our business but also the countries in which we operate. And we have much more to accomplish as we move into our second century of operation.
    [/left]

45

Do they need pensions? I mean, it’s really nice, but there are enough people out there making similar wages that have to plan their own retirement.

46

now who’d want to do a stupid thing like read actual facts before running their mouths :shrug:

i know exactally what youre saying and agree as i used to be a supervisor in that industry too.

47

^
most of your facts are what will kill this company

stop being a cocky fuck, you are not as smart as you think you are.

48

Certainly pensions are a thing of the past and I believe everyone should set up a 401K. I rather have my cash in my hands then trust a companies. I invest 18% of every pay check into my 401K. Unfortunatetly others don’t seem to feel the same way and rely on hope that the corporation they work for will be a round forever to take care of them. Regardless I’m not eligible for a pension anyway since I’m non-union. But to be fair to both sides it is GM or whatever other companies fault for going through with the agreement and not putting away the proper funds to hold true to their promises. Instead of dipping into their pension funds for cash to do stupid deals such as the Fiat thing they should have left it alone and they be fine with it.

Regardless some are avoiding the main point of my post - which is the impact of excessive importation of goods and services which has had a huge effect on our economy. With all the relaxation on trade agreements Americans now import and consume more goods than we produce. As gay as it may sound the hole “be american, buy american” holds some very good merit to it. A nation as a whole needs to support itself instead of making a very small percentage extremely rich. We can blame the leaders of our nation for this since they are so corrupt and allow such a thing as this to happen. We now live in a capitalist society instead of a true democracy…anyway back on point. The outcome of large corparations will have a huge trickle down effect on our nation as a whole. Although it may come to work out better for us its a scary thought of what will happen when the Big Three get taken to there knees. I do think the whole Delphi thing is a good thing becasue it’s gonna help the unions open their eyes and realize that the fat happy days are over. Although I don’t wish hardships on anyone it’ll be a good lesson to many NOT to live above and beyond your means. In addition every decision has an outcome that must be thought through, I work with too many individuals that make six digits figures and can only afford to drive a beater because they are supporting three X wifes. But something like has nothing to do with this conversation.

49

I meant to respond to this but forgot to. You have to remember that pensions is something very old school. Back in the day everyone offered one, till things changed and 401K became the new standard. Now I’d have to say about atleast 75% of the current UAW work force was hired in the late 70’s- early 80’s when pensions were still the rage. It wasn’t till later Many realized that pensions are too easily lost, thus 401K’s are a better deal. Now since members have to vote on the national agreement, do you think that 75% of the membership is gonna agree on changing over to a 401K when they have less then ten years befor ethey retire? I wouldn’t and I doubt you would either if your were in the same position. Obviously you and myself, the younger generation, believe in the alternatives means of savings for retirement because it keeps money in your own hands. The downfall of 401K’s is that they are influenced by the market, instead of a known standard rate at time of retirement ala pensions. Either one is a gamble in their own way.

50

funny, i was just in detroit… and i was in a large tower that had two letters on a sign out side of it…

heh?

51

Well, I didn’t mean to stop pensions cold turkey. Life isn’t fair, but that would just be cruel.

52

there you have it… americans want more for less… and business suffers…

Unions are becoming the problem not the solution anymore… They were at one point there to protect the workers… now it seems businesses need unions to protect themselves…

Oh wait, they do… its called… move your plant to india and/or mexico… We really shoot ourselves in the foot… we have outselves to thank… :tup: UAW , thanks for making our businesses move elsewhere… yur doing a great job!

:word: except I do blame people for milking the system… its the people that milk the system that make the systems fail…

53

If you were offered 2x as much as you make now to do the same work would you do it?

54

Bwahaha there it is! The solution! Management strike on the UAW!!! No more pickups, deliveries, sales, or even paychecks until the union accepts reasonable payscales and benefits!!!

55

Yep, but if I demanded to be paid twice the value I add to a company I’d be fired.

56

yes thats partly true. everyone wants to have a good lifestyle, have healthcare, etc. well the UAW got that for their people. and it was fine that everyone else who bought a car was paying for that. but now with so much cheaper foreign competition they cant survive. will you pay an extra $2000 for a car vs. the exact same thing for $2000 less? when you look at it that way no! americans are cheap of course they wont. well when you are building cars in mexico, china, or even japan where they dont have to pay nearly as much towards workers health care (because the govt helps unlike ours) you have the same schenerio. the domestics are forced to either cut corners, benefits, etc to sell theyre cars at the same price to stay competitive with imports which dont have to pay all those extra costs.

and if youre going to comment with something stupid like “well tell GM to not make boring cars then” do it in some other thread. until you work in the auto industry you dont even know the half of what goes on within it.

57

:word: