^ WTF is that supposed to mean
are you The Russian?
a) it means the status quo has changed. The old phrase “think globally, act locally” comes to mind, and that the issues I’m referring to do have local impact.
b) no, I’m not.
Nope. Even if you had been right I’m not surewhat point you were trying to make.
that just isnt true. but perception is reality. look at the way they even phrase the question - your choices in the poll are to buy an american car to be patriotic or an import car for quality…talk about a biased opinion.
I personally will never support an import car company, but I dont have to when I can get all of the results and quality I want elsewhere. Until the perception catches up that there are good products on both sides, our industries are screwed.
Ah - my mistake.
But my point is there’d be a significant impact to your local economy if that did happen. Or does that not make a difference to you?
I’m here in Rochester, and there’s been alot made in the downsizing of Kodak’s industrial base. About the only thing left here is R&D; and now the biggest employers are service companies. That’s all well and good, except it’s alot harder to export services to counterbalance imports of durable goods.
How do you define an import car company? Do you mean you will research each specific model and buy the one that is assembled in a factory here? Or do you research and buy a car with the most parts that were built here? Or do you mean from a company whos corporate headquarters are in the US? Did you crush a beer can on your forhead after you posted that? 
Not trying to start shit with you, I’m actually just interested in what people’s current thoughts are behind the 50 year old import vs domestic battle.
Wow, this is a tough one. I’ve retyped my post 3 times trying to explain myself…
Yes, if the Tonawanda Engine Plant closed it would be bad for our local economy. But the way to keep it open is not to hope people buy that product because it’s the right thing to do. That won’t work. The way to keep it open is for it to produce the better product vs the competition. That’s the only way.
Unfortunately, that’s hard as hell in the modern marketplace given how much lower cost the labor is in underdeveloped countries. It’s unfortunate for those who do not have the skills to add value here, and all the more reason that any young person who doesn’t go to college to develop skills that cannot be sourced to the uneducated masses in other countries is a complete fool. Especially considering that more and more people in India and China understand this are going to college.
Capitalism can be a bitch. Education is the way to make it work for you.
If this sort of stuff interests you I’d highly recommend this:
There’s a list out there with “American Made”, and this is also mandated to be on the sticker (Monroney Act?)
Anyhow, there’s a list of cars with the highest “American Content” - those here are over 75% American-sourced.
But what isn’t shown is how much of an indvidual impact there is
Car on list: (2005 Sales from manufacturers reports)
- Ford F-series (901,463)
- Chevrolet Silverado (705,981)
- Toyota Camry (431,703)
- Ford E-series (179,543)
- Chevrolet Cobalt (212,667)
- Ford Explorer (239,788)
- Chevrolet Malibu/Maxx (245,861)
- Ford Escape (165,122)
- Toyota Sienna (161,360)
- Chevrolet Trailblazer (244,150)
Now of these vehicles listed, 2,894,575 were domestic labels, and 593,063 were not. In addition, there were similar vehicles that were not listed, built in some of the same factories:
GMC Sierra (229,488)
Buick Rainier (15,271)
GMC Envoy (107,862)
Mercury Mountaineer (32,491)
Mercury Mariner (34,099)
Now presumably, the number of each of these vehicles made do impact the relative value to American jobs - a 100% American-made car does little if it only sells 10 copies, while a 10% American-made car would do more if it sells 100,000 copies.
Now it’s hard to tell exactly what each brand line does in terms of the bottom line for industrial America, but as a general rule, the domestics still invest more in America than the transplants.
As an example, for 2005 GM built in NA 4,338,639 vehicles, while importing 115,746. Conversely, Toyota built in NA 1,399,220 vehicles, while importing 861,076. So having GM selling with a 50% American-parts-per-NA-built-car average (and I’m exaggerating downward) will still do more technically than Toyota with a 75% American-parts-per-NA-built-car average.
And I tell you, the only reason why I’m so hyped about this is that people claim Toyota is better for America than the domestics, yet bitch about jobs being outsourced overseas, or being downsized out of a job. You can’t have it both ways.
I couldnt tell if this was for my post, but I’ll respond anyway
import car company = company with origins outside of the US
domestic = GM, Ford, Chrysler/Dodge
Sure it would be nice for all parts to be made and assembled here, but thats just not how global capitalism is going to work. So I’ll follow the companys origins and follow the money. Domestic companies still put way more money back into the US, plus you get their history - I know Im proud to see a “Made in the USA” on something now. If I could buy all products from the US, I would. If I could buy only from the Northeast or only from Buffalo, I would. And if I had a can of the champagne of rochester handy, Id crush that genny on my forehead for ya, free of charge 
Interesting thoughts guys. :tup:
Just make sure that Genny can’s empty. Can’t go wasting crapchester’s finest. 
Ummm ok wtf
This is a really tough one for me.
The capitalist part of me wants to say, “Fuck GM. If they put out a superior product people will buy it, and if they refuse to, or can’t afford to because of terrible contracts they’ve allowed unions to push them into, that’s their problem”.
But the part of me that looks a little farther ahead than profits and capital gains sees a very big problem coming for this country. Right now there are lots of college educated professionals like BikerFry who take the stance that this is an unskilled labor issue, and getting a college education will protect you. Unfortunately, 3rd world countries are starting to get those college educations, and I think within 10-20 years from now you’re going to see a huge shift of professional “college grad” jobs overseas as well. Companies like FedEx have made this a very small world, and with increases in technology it gets smaller each day.
Don’t believe me? Look at the IT industry. I can pretty much guarantee anyone you talk to in IT has worked with at least one overseas outsourced consultant. As more of them get their educations and become better in their respective fields this is only going to get worse.
So what’s the answer? I don’t have one. The fact is living in the US, and living the way someone who has spent big bucks getting a 4 or more year degree feels they are entitled to, is expensive. My wife and I both have 4 year degrees, two cars, a kid on the way, and a house here in Williamsville. Without getting into numbers, we spend a pretty decent buck but make pretty decent money as well. If we were a similar family living in India there is no way we’d be living the same way, so with a college education there we wouldn’t be expecting nearly the same rate of pay as we get here in the US.
So does that mean that Americans should just change their lifestyle? Sell my house in Williamsville and get a much cheaper apartment, that we might share with my parents? Get rid of our cars and take public transit? Read books instead of having Dish Network and an HDTV? Because if America wants to just say, “It’s a global economy, learn to live with it”, I think that’s where we’re heading. Saying “Go get an education” isn’t going to cut it as these 3rd world countries start doing our 50-100k a year jobs for 20-40k a year.
The auto industry is a bad example for this though. Union contracts, especially regarding health care and retired workers are causing as much or more of a problem for GM than competition. It’s hard for GM to build an Accord beater for the same price when they start out $1500 in the hole per car just to cover current and past employee health care. So by the time that car rolls out of the factory if it’s going to cost the same as the Accord, you needed to find somewhere to make up that difference.
Enough for now… dinner time. I’ll check back later.
A+ post! Would read again!
I can’t wait for my MBA. I want to learn more about macro-economics. I’ve talked with my future father in law about this kind of stuff a bit. He’s got an MBA, runs American Brass, his boss some dude in Sweden, yada yada yada. He knows this type of shit well. As he’s explained it, in the grand scheme of things India and China will take our low cost work, probably unionize like we did, their quality of life will come up, and eventually the work can come back here or at least our jobs won’t be leaving anymore or something like that. Might take 20 or 50 years, but their lower quality of life that makes them cheaper will equalize with ours.
What I want to know is what theoretically happens to us while the underdeveloped countries are catching up? Does our quality of life decrease? Will we go through a period of stagnation? Is this it? Their doors are open now so we’re no longer going to remain the world economic leader I’ve grown up taking for granted? Do they just join us and then dump the low cost work on, say, Africa? I think it was their closed economies that was holding back India and China and caused this huge rift between our qualities of life, so do things just equalize now? How many licks does it take to get to the tootsie roll center of a tootsie pop?
First off, sorry to single you (BikerFry) out like that, but your post was well thought out, and you were the perfect example of the college educated person who while safe right now will probably be facing an outsourcing challenge in their lifetime.
Honestly, I don’t know if you can level the playing field and still keep the way of life we are all accustomed to. The reason Americans (and Canadians, and the British, and most “civilized” countries, not that you think I’m picking on just US) can live their lavish materialistic lifestyles is because someone somewhere is willing to make these materialistic goods at a cheap price.
For example, when my parents were kids, and the TV they had in their home was made in the US, people were living it up if they had a color 13" TV. Now every idiot who makes more than minimum wage feels they should have a TV in every room and a home theater system. Now you can add a tariff to any TV you sell in the US to make it so that TV can be made here, but that 51" HDTV that Best Buy had on sale for $1000 is going to be $4000.
You can level the playing field in the automotive industry as well, but for $15000 you’re not going to get automatic trans, AC, CD, PL, PW, PM, ABS, airbags all around and stability control. No, base models will go back to being BASE models.
It’s what I like to call “The Walmart Loop”. As a company you make low prices the only thing you care about, and since consumers only care about low prices, you’re a monster success. You use that success to force your suppliers to only care about low prices, since you’re so big they pretty much have no choice but to keep doing business with you, so you can lower your prices even more. Those suppliers move overseas to meet your prices, more jobs are lost, people need lower prices to keep their style of living. By the time people realize that they have to care about more than just the lowest price they’re not making enough to be able to afford not to. At which point maybe our style of life will level out with India and China.
The more I really think about the problem, the more I realize it’s time to abolish trade agreements like NAFTA and start increasing tariffs on everything coming into this country. And by everything, I mean cars, TV’s, Ipods, hired software consultants, phone based customer service… EVERYTHING. If you don’t want to have it done by someone in this country, expect to pay a hefty tax. Sure, prices are going to go up, but the alternative is a lot worse.
Now, here’s where my plan goes a little farther than tariffs. Take all that tariff money and put it right back into the system. Step one, a reasonable prescription health plan for every CITIZEN (yeah, you illegals, my plan also involves spending some money a big catapult and you’re getting a one way airmail ride home; the landing should keep you from coming back and even discourage your friends from making the trip).
When I say reasonable, I mean you can get the drugs to keep you alive for free. No Viagra, No hair growth medicine, and not even any cutting edge trials. You want to try beating Darwin by spending a quarter million fighting some defect you were born with that should have killed you, be our guest, but the country is not going to pay for it. The needs of the many vs the needs of the few and all that jazz.
Take the rest of the tariff funds and overhaul the medical system in this country. Bye bye million dollar awards because a doctor trying to save your life made a mistake. Yes, I feel for you that your loved one is gone because of a mistake by another, but 5 million dollars does not bring them back. If their death was more than a mistake there are criminal courts to deal with wrongful acts done with malice, and their punishment does not involve a “grieving” relative getting a winning lotto ticket from an insurance company. This involves much more than tort reform and should probably be its own thread, but you get the idea. Lets get the cost of healthcare down.
Maybe at this point US corporations can actually offer health plans and decent salaries to their workers and still compete. We re-evaluate the tariff and hopefully lower it, since the economy is booming with all kinds of jobs (manufacturing, service etc) all right here on our soil.
So yeah, that’s my plan. Start poking holes in it. The main thing is to get people thinking about this, any maybe staying out of Walmart.
a) the Chinese are already worrying about the next great low-cost labor powerhouse. And right now, two are at their doorstep: Vietnam and India. India’s probably a bigger concern as there’s a huge population (like China), but alot more investment in education going on.
b) our standard-of-living will inevitably go down unless there is a way to counter the large trade-imbalance we have with some of these other countries. Tarriffs are a short-term answer, and would likely cause retaliatory tarriffs from other countries. And that would kill off our (perhaps pathetic in comparison) export ability. In the end, that would probably not get us anywhere, but with more expensive goods.
c) the core of the problem is a need to change the “me first” attitude of the current population. Most of the people who built this country into the powerhouse that it is (was?) remember what it’s like to have literally nothing and bust your ass for what you get. I’d hate to think that we’d need another Depression to get that mentality back - but for the most part, I’ve seen alot of an overactive sense of entitlement in the younger generations.
And that sense of entitlement doesn’t always necessarily apply to goods - it also applies to status, employment, etc. I remember reading an article about the unemployment rate, and how the numbers may not be as accurate as expected because there are some people actively NOT looking for work, because what’s out there is “beneath them”.
And yea - it sucks that company X downsized/outsourced your job and you don’t want to be stocking shelves or flipping burgers at 30 - but that doesn’t mean you should be living off a government dole, either.
d) and yes, we may be moving into an Information Age; but as we all know - the US doesn’t have a lock on brains in this world. We eventually will need to create an environment to draw the best and the brightest from other countries so that those innovations happen here, not there. But to do that, we’d probably have to change some things in Immigration Law. Unfortunately, we probably can’t have a counterpart measure to get rid of the dead wood in our own society (lol)
Wow, two knowledgeable and intelligent posts in a row. I thought I was on NYSpeed. Someone must have redirected my shortcut.
No problem on the singling out. I make for a pretty good example of the type of person that nobody would have thought would have to worry about China or India 10 years ago. I consider getting singled out in this sort of a discussion more of a “head up.”
…waiting for AWDrifter’s perspective. I know he’s a big fan of low cost country sourcing. :ham:
I hope you get a good macro economic understanding from it, just dont expect to get paid with it. Unless you are phenominal kiss ass - I made the mistake of having degrees and being good at my job, whew, has my wallet ever paid for that dumb move :lol:
I hope so too. This stuff’s interesting, scary, and exciting all at the same time. No I’m not going to do it for the money, more for what I want to actually do. What do you mean? You shelled out all the money for the pieces of paper and they didn’t translate to a pay scale increase or something?
Praxair pays for education, so ultimately I won’t pay a dime for my MBA. Which makes me think I oughta milk it for all its worth and get a masters in engineering first…