While the Supreme Court has the power of judicial review (Marbury v. Madison), a single ruling may be the law of the land at the moment, but it won’t stand. Gun control is necessary, and the text of the law is much clearer, legally speaking, than Bill O’Reilly and Sean Hannity may have led you to believe. The first clause was included deliberately. If the intention had been unrestricted gun ownership, the first clause would not have been necessary in the first place.
Liberal is not a slander word. What you really mean is “liberal Democrat,” and I am not that. I am a liberal Independent moderate. I believe in a small, effective Federal government, civil rights, and free speech. I do not believe that the unlimited right to bear arms is either necessary or beneficial for a free society. I’m fine with people carrying pistols, even concealed, if an extremely thorough background check is completed, the weapon is registered, safety courses are completed, and so forth. I think what you’re complaining about is that you were forced to complete a bare minimum of the qualification that should be necessary in a civilized country to own a weapon whose only purpose is the threatening or taking of human life. If you’re going to use a conservative court’s interpretation of the Constitution to make a misguided complaint about your perceived right to bear arms, I feel it necessary to point out that there is a corresponding responsibility, that is legislated for good reason. And to point out that, even when the Constitution was written (when we had a private citizen-army more like a militia than an organized military force, and there were no such things as assault weapons), it was not seen fit to say, “The right to possess weaponry shall not be infringed.” It was qualified.
But hey, if it makes you feel better to imagine a hippie-pacifist that’s going off to peace camp, whatever. Ignorance is bliss.
E: A 5-4 ruling. Not exactly the landmark that it’s presented as. It will be overturned within 15 years.
^ Reasonable background checks, and the 8 - 12 month process Erie County makes you go through are two very different things.
It’s funny that you mentioned running for office in NY, because based on your views you are just what NY needs less of, not more of. But you’re also just the kind of person who will get elected in NY and continue this state’s downward spiral.
In my eyes gun control is nothing more than a political tool. It has no effect on crime or the safety of the masses. If anything we’d be safer if everyone had a gun and we were all assured by mutual destruction. :shrug:
Because of my views on gun control, you presume to know my economic perspectives? I think you’d be pleasantly surprised. (I disagree strongly with the economic stance the state has taken. I have significant problems with most unions.)
Or are your political opinions based solely on what people think about extreme conservatism and gun control?
Long processes are not necessarily good processes. If it takes them a year to complete a process that should take 15-30 days, well then, we need to get a few more employees in that department, or introduce more automation, or both. They need to do a thorough background check, make sure you’re educated, and so forth. I think that a large part of the process SHOULD come out of your pocket - that’s how the taxes don’t get raised even further. If someone wants to get licensed to get a gun, there’s nothing wrong with making them pay. If they’re lower income and cannot afford it? Guns should not be a luxury of the wealthy. I’d offer low-interest loans to allow people to complete the process.
I’m not on an ivory tower. I’m not talking about putting insane restrictions on hunting weapons like shotguns or basic rifles. Do you know anyone who uses an AR-15 or Desert Eagle to hunt? Yes, people use handguns to finish off prey, but there’s no reason that can’t be done with either the same gun that felled it or a hunting knife.
I know, I’m not a hunter now, but I have been in the past, and it’s a big tradition in my family.
Oh absolutely. Except the facts disagree with you. We have some of the loosest gun control laws in any civilized state - and guess what! - an equally high murder rate. More gun control in England and France has led to less murder. Some other crimes jumped, like simple assault. I’ll take assault over murder, as a starting point.
People get passionate, and care more about actions than consequences. That’s why gun control is more than a political tool - and has a huge effect on crimes of passion and has a corresponding increase in the safety of the masses.
It’s funny… When I was in college I took a job at CA-1 services working at the airport. It took the FBI less than 2 weeks to do a background check and approve me for completely unrestricted access to the entire Buffalo airport. I entered and exited driving through an unmanned security gate using my access card and then hopped in a van and drove around to each plane, sometimes going in through the service door. The FBI could give that kind of clearance in two weeks but Erie County takes a year to let me own a pistol.
The idea of giving out a loan to get a gun makes me cringe.
To be clear, not saying either of us is right or wrong, just having a fun debate since my opinion is so different from yours. :tup:
The whole ivory tower thing is just because you are making it very clear that you have a strong opinion on something you have absolutely no experience with or first hand knowledge of.
I have plenty of experience and first hand knowledge. I personally own about 5 guns, I’ve been a hunter, I’ve completed a 20 week sport shooting course as part of my college curriculum, and I’m fully qualified to get a concealed/carry permit with a background check and references.
I know plenty about it, but I do have strong opinions, because I don’t think it’s necessary. Just because someone wants to collect it isn’t a reason to keep it legal - like child pornography. I’m not equated gun ownership to child porn, just showing why the argument is flawed.
Depends on the animal, and how wounded. That’s why I said knife… or the same gun that you took it down with in the first place. If it’s incapacitated and suffering, no reason you can’t just cut its throat. Otherwise, by all means, stand back and let fly. But that’s waaaay off topic, instead of just off topic.
I was never a big hunter, but there are people in my family who are, so I understand the culture and why it’s fun. I just think it’s a pretty piss poor argument to use against instituting measures to make sure the mentally ill, insane, former criminals, and so forth aren’t allowed to just go out and buy whatever gun they see fit.
Almost as piss poor as alluding that anyone who’s against the stupidity that is the Erie County licensing process wants to give guns to the mentally ill, insane or criminals.
I have no problem with not allowing that group to have guns. I have no problem with requiring training to own a handgun. What I have a problem with is the fact that a good citizen with a perfectly clean record such as myself has to go through A YEAR of red tape to get a handgun. Meanwhile Buffalo is full of criminals with guns shooting each other on the street at least once a week.
There in lies the biggest problem with gun control… Criminals don’t care about breaking gun laws.
And to top if off they make the process as difficult as possible.
You can’t print the application online, just view it. You have to get the application from the downtown Erie County building. Luckily the Gun Center course provides the application as well.
They only accept postal money orders. I mean come on, every where in the world takes credit cards now, but not the Erie County pistol permit department.
You have to submit the application in person, they won’t accept mailing it in. And of course there is only one office, downtown.
Several of the local police departments require all 4 of your references to be from your town. AKA, live in Tonawanda, all 4 references have to be from Tonawanda. Nevermind that you’re applying for a STATE license in ERIE COUNTY, nope, all 4 from your town. And none of them can be relatives, and I’ve been told (though it’s not on the application) they should know you for at least 3 years.
Amherst requires you call ahead on the day you want to get printed, and offer a whooping 15 minute window from 7:15am to 7:30am to make your reservation. They have one phone line, and it’s busy when you call.
Once this is all done nothing happens for 6 months to a year. At some point in that time you’ll get your interview with the local police. Then you get a letter out of the blue saying you’ve been approved, and the clock starts ticking on getting your first handgun. If you fail to get a gun on your permit in 60 days the whole process is null and void and you start over.
When you buy your first gun you get a receipt from the gun dealer and take another trip downtown, at which point they send away for your actual license. You’d think with just one office in all of Erie County, and the $105.25 charge for the application they could buy the fucking printer to print them on site but no. Maybe offer a paper temporary one? Nah. Weeks later it comes in, you pick it up, pay another fee, and can finally claim your gun.
Each time you buy a gun you have to get it added to the license. Of course licensed gun dealers aren’t allowed to do it. Nope, another trip downtown, another fee, and then it’s on your license and can be picked up from the dealer.
Now a lot of these are little things, I’ll admit that. But when you see them all together it’s pretty obvious they’re doing everything they can to simply discourage people from applying.
I’m in agreement with your complaint about the line only being open from 7:15-7:30, not being able to schedule ahead, the amount of time that it takes, etc. I don’t agree that the background check, safety course, and amount of money spent are excessive.
People who oppose background checks are okay with guns winding up in the hands of criminals. How do I know? Because they oppose checking to see if someone’s a criminal before selling them a gun. And so forth. It NEEDS to be a very thorough process. Just because I think you were being excessive in your complaints does not mean I do not think that several of them are justified.
You’re right - criminals don’t care. But criminals are going to kill people with or without gun control laws in place - our experience vs. those of our European neighbors are proof that higher gun ownership does not equate to less gun violence; quite the opposite. It’s not an effective deterrent. Police can be. Harsh sentences can be. When someone is a victim of a gun crime, it’s easy to say “If they’d only had a gun.” When someone’s a victim of a simple assault, I think we should say, “Thank God they didn’t have a gun,” to be equitable. The vast majority of people are incapable of controlling their passions. That’s why the vast majority of people should face an strict licensing process to get a weapon that is very well suited to those in the grip of passion.
As I said, a year is ridiculous. As to your points - 1-5 are ludicrous, and are problems with the system, not with the theory. It needs improving, not scrapping. It doesn’t need to be less strict to be more efficient. 6 has some flaws, but it takes as long as it takes. It should take less time, but it should not be rushed. The period shouldn’t expire, they should just issue a license and get ti over with. 7 and 8 are ridiculous, because once a license is established, a gun dealer should be able to add a gun to it remotely, with a corresponding law that would severely punish anyone who falsified those records (tens of thousands of dollars in fines, revocation of license, and jail time).
^ I never said I was opposed to the background check. I’m opposed to the fact that they sit on your application for a year. I can walk into Gander Mountain after work and have them run a background check in minutes to let me buy a rifle or shotgun. The kid seeing a shrink who did the shooting at Virginia Tech… the system needs to catch him and not allow him to buy a gun.
A year to do a background check in the information age is just another way of them dragging the process out to discourage people from applying.
Then I guess I misinterpreted what you said, I apologize. It came off as if you were complaining that you had to jump through hoops to buy a gun, not that the system is inefficient. I hate inefficiency in every possible way.
No, I have no problem with the background check. I have a problem with the fact that Torqdss can get his conceal carry permit in 3 or 4 weeks in Allegany County while someone in Erie County has to wait a year just to get a pistol permit restricted to target/hunting. There is simply no reason the process should take a year.
My biggest fear is that in the eyes of an unltra liberal like Obama and 90% of his cronies, the constitution is an evolving thing, meaning it can be reinterpreted with the changing times. THIS IS NOT GOOD! That means they can pretty much change anything they want in it and say it is open to interpretation, and this is how they see it. So much for freedom.
Oh and for those who are against the patriot act and whatnot…I am not ALL for it, but by the same token this country has been the safest in the past 8 years than it has been like…ever. We have not had a single forign terrorist attack on US soil since 9/11.
Sidenote: It is actually Illegal the way that Erie county makes you wait and go through all these bs processes in order to obtain a legally purchased hand gun. But what can ya do :gotme:.
