I am now a Libertarian 
I agree with 99% of what Darkstar posted
Originally posted by Darkstar
Here is where I stand in relation to Libertarians:
Abortion: While the right to chose sounds like it is a freedom vs. Govt. control issue, I view abortion the same as walking up to a guy on the street and shooting them in the head. If abortion is legal then that should be too. At conception, that mass of cells is a human in its simplest form. I know people say, what if there is a problem with the baby? If there is a severe problem the pregnancy will abort naturally with no surgical intervention.
Republican 1 Libertarian 0
Military: I think the Libertarian view is too unrealistic. There is no way we can engage in a global economy without protecting our intrests abroad in one way or another. However, I don’t think we should be the police and protectors of all of the smaller shit countries of the world. As for the current war, on 9/11 they struck us in our country and we are in the beginning of our response to that attack. I personally think GWB is being to laid back. I say F polictial correctness and F the UN and start really bombing. Send a powerful message that we can hit much harder than they can. As for nuclear weapons, I feel that it’s the same situation as the playground in 3rd grade. The biggest kid was the intimidator not the intimidated, and so should we be as a nation.
Republican 2 Libertarian 0
Taxation: In theory the 2 parties are of the same thinking, but not in practice. The so-called “conservative” administration has grown the size of the federal govt. not reduced it as promised.
Republican 2 Libertarian 1
Gay Marriage: Personally I think it’s wrong. If two dudes want to do that in the privacy of their homes, fine, but don’t expect to be recognized as married and expect others to agree with you. Homosexuality is their choice, not the other 90% of the country.
Republican 3 Libertarian 1
Gun Control: Total abolishment of gun regulations and the ATF. 
Republican 3 Libertarian 2
Immigration: Don’t punish companies that hire illegals? That is insane. Let’s just reward companies who take jobs away from citizens for some guy who just jumped across the border. :mad:
Republican 4 Libertarian 2
Trade: I think we should reward buying American made goods and punish buying foreign goods. Also I support substantial penalites on US companies that look to other countries for cheap labor that puts Americans out of work. Take the money made from these penalties and give it back to the american citizens that suffer from this farming of jobs overseas. This doesn’t fit either party so…
Republican 4 Libertarian 2 Rolandism 1
In summary, I agree with a lot of what the libertarians think. The things that are missing are the foundation of a faith based thinking, strong military presence, and a strong and ENFORCED immigration policy.
Originally posted by Black_WS6
Trade: I think we should reward buying American made goods and punish buying foreign goods. Also I support substantial penalites on US companies that look to other countries for cheap labor that puts Americans out of work. Take the money made from these penalties and give it back to the american citizens that suffer from this farming of jobs overseas.
The thing is, if we do something like this, we’re basically saying:
- We make inferior products.
and
- The Socialists had it right: Capitalism is flawed.
I’m a Capitalist first. All of my other political views fall a distant second to the sanctity of a free market economy. Whether we like it or not, it is now a global economy (and has been to a lesser extent for hundreds of years). The problem with trying to buy cars (or any other product) based on the country of origin is this:
Many “American” cars are made in Canada, while a majority of “Japanese” cars are made here…and look at all the VWs made in Mexico/Brazil. How many people does Honda employ in this country? Tens of thousands? Hundreds of thousands?
My girlfriend’s car is made in England out of parts from Germany, Belgium, and Brazil. It’s a German company’s modernization of a classic British car… a perfect example of the globalization of production.
Originally posted by Black_WS6 Here is where I stand in relation to Libertarians:
Abortion: While the right to chose sounds like it is a freedom vs. Govt. control issue, I view abortion the same as walking up to a guy on the street and shooting them in the head. If abortion is legal then that should be too. At conception, that mass of cells is a human in its simplest form. I know people say, what if there is a problem with the baby? If there is a severe problem the pregnancy will abort naturally with no surgical intervention.
I respectfully disagree with that. You have to draw a line somewhere. While I do disagree with late term abortions, I personally dont see that mass of cells to be a human. But this is a disagrement on a theological level, and I dont want to get into that. Lets keep it political.
Military: I think the Libertarian view is too unrealistic. There is no way we can engage in a global economy without protecting our intrests abroad in one way or another. However, I don’t think we should be the police and protectors of all of the smaller shit countries of the world. As for the current war, on 9/11 they struck us in our country and we are in the beginning of our response to that attack. I personally think GWB is being to laid back. I say F polictial correctness and F the UN and start really bombing. Send a powerful message that we can hit much harder than they can. As for nuclear weapons, I feel that it’s the same situation as the playground in 3rd grade. The biggest kid was the intimidator not the intimidated, and so should we be as a nation.
Why could we not engage in a global economy without “protecting our interests”? Pretty much every other counrty in the world does. Hell, nobody in Europe besides GB even has a standing Army. Its like everybody let their guard down, except for us. I dont like this “pre-emptive” bull. Yes, I think we should have went into Afghanistan. No, I dont think we should have went into Iraq. It wasnt our business. Yes, its good that he’s out of power, and its great that all the Iraqi’s are free now, but there are probably about 50 nations that are far more oppressed than the Iraqi’s were. Back in 1994 we sat back and watched as 800,000 people died from genocide in Rwanda. We as a global society need to move past using violence as a means to resolve. We claim that we must strike these rogue countries that have nukes and weapons of mass destruction, but we’re gonna feel pretty fucking dumb if we try and strike Korea and they launch their nukes on us. The war that we should be concerned with is the war on terrorism. Everyone knows that fighting a traditional tactical war, the US would never lose. However, the US could not sustain a war on its own soil. Now I’m not suggesting that North Korea is gonna show in San Francisco bay with a bunch of boats, I’m talking about terrorism. Imagine if 9/11 wasnt just 4 planes. Imagine if it was just a small part of a much larger plan. 9/11 completly shut the country down. The government, the economy, travel. Everything stopped. Imagine if 9/11 was about 20 planes, and car truck bombs (think Oklahoma City sized truck bombs), and chemical and biological attacks. It wouldnt take more than a few hundred well-coordinated people to bring the country to total chaos.
Heres a link to that Rwanda thing… http://mediafilter.org/caq/CAQ52Rwanda.html
Taxation: In theory the 2 parties are of the same thinking, but not in practice. The so-called “conservative” administration has grown the size of the federal govt. not reduced it as promised.
Libertarians would slice so much of the fat off of the Federal government, there would be no need for the Federal Income Tax anymore. Thats a good 10%, minimum. That beats Bush’s $300 paycheck.
Gay Marriage: Personally I think it’s wrong. If two dudes want to do that in the privacy of their homes, fine, but don’t expect to be recognized as married and expect others to agree with you. Homosexuality is their choice, not the other 90% of the country.
Its a problem that cant be ignored. The fact is there are thousands of gay couples out there. I think “civil union” is a good compromise. Its not my place to tell a gay couple, thats very much in love, that are raising children, that they shouldnt be entitled to the same legal benefits as straight couples. Thats discrimination. Its not the federal governments place to pass judgement, which it certainly does when it says that “people of the same sex should not be together”. I can understand that the anti -gay groups dont want it to be called marraige, as it traditionally is a man and a woman, and its also tied into religion, which preaches man and woman only. IMHO, the government should call it a civil union when ANYONE gets married. It would solve a lot of problems.
Immigration: Don’t punish companies that hire illegals? That is insane. Let’s just reward companies who take jobs away from citizens for some guy who just jumped across the border. :mad:
The US already ships so much of its work out of the country. Its ok when GM sends all its manufacturing jobs to Canada? There really isnt that much of a difference on that level. And its not like these people are stealing IT jobs from Silicon Valley, they are out picking grapes or some shit for like $.50 an hour. I dont agree 100% with the Libertarian stance on this issue. I think there should still be some immigration laws left in effect.
Trade: I think we should reward buying American made goods and punish buying foreign goods. Also I support substantial penalites on US companies that look to other countries for cheap labor that puts Americans out of work. Take the money made from these penalties and give it back to the american citizens that suffer from this farming of jobs overseas. This doesn’t fit either party so…
Sorry, Im a FIRM believer in the Free Market Economy. Supply and demand should dictate who buys what from where. It would raise the standard of living leaps and bounds as people finally started to get decent wages and working conditions.
Here’s what happens. Big business right now is making all sorts of goods for the Bob, the American consumer. Bob’s factory just got shut down because the labor got shipped overseas. Bob’s brother Tom took a huge paycut, because Tom’s company, while they didnt ship their labor overseas, has to compete in an economy where other companies DO ship their labor overseas, so they can sell their product for less because they are paying some polynesian kid a nickel a day to work for them. But now that Bob and Tom have lost all or a good chunk of their income, they cant afford to buy anything. So the huge companies have all sorts of cheaply made product to sell to the american consumer, but since they laid off or lowered the pay of all their consumers, they have now lost their client base. This outsourcing does nothing but fuck the economy, fuck the consumer, and make the business owners richer and richer, because they can still sell enough of their product to make millions for themselves. Opening up the market would release these 3rd world countries from being the slaves of corporate america. The WTO knows all about this shit, and they do nothing but sit around and make the rich get richer. Its deplorable.
In summary, I agree with a lot of what the libertarians think. The things that are missing are the foundation of a faith based thinking, strong military presence, and a strong and ENFORCED immigration policy. [/B]
And this is the basis for 99.9% of our political disagrements. You feel there should be “faith based thinking”. Thats not what the founding fathers of our country intended. I believe that the church should be completly and unequivicably seperate. I think that introducing religion into government is a disaster waiting to happen. Well, i should say a disaster thats STARTING to happen, thanks to good ol GWB. He is pushing his religions moral standard on America. The reason he doesnt want gays to marry is because it says so in his religion. The reason he doesnt want Stern types on the air is because of the standard of decency his religion mandates. I, as well as millions of other people, were not offended by his show. Sure, its tasteless and crude, but the Constitution protects tasteless and crude speach the same as it does any other type of speach. There should be no decency standard. Here we go with the “free market” thing again. If Stern offended enough people, his sponsors would yank their support and he would be off the air iin a heartbeat. The federal government should not be in the censorship business. And GWB wants to amend the constitution to ban gay marraiges. That is by far the most retarded thing ive ever heard. The Federal government is supposed to have LESS power than the states do. If they pull this off, it will be a SAD day for America. When the Federal government tells states that they arent smart enough to make up their own laws anymore. That they dont know what’s best for them. Its soo much deeper than 99.9% of the people out there realize. Its really saddenning, how little the average american cares about politics. Over the past 200+ years, millions of people have died to make this country what it is today, and people cant even stop watching MTV or Survivor long enough to even know what the hell either canidate stands for.
/rant
sorry. :embarass:
^ your girlfriends car is made in england b/c german labor is some of the most overpaid labor going and to build a mini in germany would yield too high a price tag for such a niche product.
like all political parties libertarians look great on paper. hell, communism looks good in theory. the bottom line is my safety and my standard of life. it’s better to be feared than loved… now obviously we can’t go around barking like a rabid dog, but to allow the world to think that we will ONLY act with unilateral support is naive and dangerous. IMHO libertarians would be better served acting as lobbiest steering dems and repubs than attempting to combat them head on. at least that way they could accomplish a sensible agenda one issue at a time.
Originally posted by rookee
^ your girlfriends car is made in england b/c german labor is some of the most overpaid labor going and to build a mini in germany would yield too high a price tag for such a niche product.
it’s made in England because they already had a Mini factory there.
If they wanted to cut costs, it would have been made in Latin America, like all cheaper German cars.
it’s not really a niche product in England either… Mini Ones (gas engine, non-supercharged) and Mini Ds (diesel) sell like hotcakes in the small/econo category.
Originally posted by rookee
^ your girlfriends car is made in england b/c german labor is some of the most overpaid labor going and to build a mini in germany would yield too high a price tag for such a niche product.like all political parties libertarians look great on paper. hell, communism looks good in theory. the bottom line is my safety and my standard of life. it’s better to be feared than loved… now obviously we can’t go around barking like a rabid dog, but to allow the world to think that we will ONLY act with unilateral support is naive and dangerous. IMHO libertarians would be better served acting as lobbiest steering dems and repubs than attempting to combat them head on. at least that way they could accomplish a sensible agenda one issue at a time.
but going around barking like a rabid dog is exactly what we’re doing. We’re on the brink of war with Syria, Iran and N. Korea, not to mention the other two war’s we’re currently fighting, PLUS all the shit thats going on with Israel and Palestine. We’ve overthrown two countries in 3 years! We can still be a very dominating force in the world without being at war with half the world. Speak softly and carry a big stick. I agree that a unilateral aggrement only scheme is not a good idea, but if we had better political ties with our allies, they would be much more supportive of us. And theres always gonna be some loons out there like Saddam, but if we could unify the US, Eurpoe, the Soviet Union and China, then these dictators would be much more likely to crack under economic sanctions and other diplomatic solutions. Like Iraq for example. We imposed embargo’s on them, but they didnt work for shit because they were dealing with France, Russia, China and god knows who else behind our backs. Now if the entire world boycotted Iraqi oil, Saddam wouldnt have been living in million dollar palaces, wouldnt have the monetary resources to hold on to power, and would eventually be overthrown. Sooner or later they will wisen up and want to become a part of the global community instead of fighting against it.
Originally posted by Darkstar
but if we could unify the US, Eurpoe, the Soviet Union and China,
how are we gonna get the Soviet Union to go along with our agenda? They haven’t spoken to us in a decade…:tounge:
Originally posted by ShalerPunk
it’s made in England because they already had a Mini factory there.If they wanted to cut costs, it would have been made in Latin America, like all cheaper German cars.
it’s not really a niche product in England either… Mini Ones (gas engine, non-supercharged) and Mini Ds (diesel) sell like hotcakes in the small/econo category.
german labor = overpaid white trash with an accent
Originally posted by rookee
german labor = overpaid white trash with an accent
eh… i’m much more impressed with initial quality in German cars than most American cars…
I keep thinking about the Ion I test drove that had exposed stripped screws
Originally posted by Darkstar
but going around barking like a rabid dog is exactly what we’re doing. We’re on the brink of war with Syria, Iran and N. Korea, not to mention the other two war’s we’re currently fighting, PLUS all the shit thats going on with Israel and Palestine. We’ve overthrown two countries in 3 years! We can still be a very dominating force in the world without being at war with half the world. Speak softly and carry a big stick. I agree that a unilateral aggrement only scheme is not a good idea, but if we had better political ties with our allies, they would be much more supportive of us. And theres always gonna be some loons out there like Saddam, but if we could unify the US, Eurpoe, the Soviet Union and China, then these dictators would be much more likely to crack under economic sanctions and other diplomatic solutions. Like Iraq for example. We imposed embargo’s on them, but they didnt work for shit because they were dealing with France, Russia, China and god knows who else behind our backs. Now if the entire world boycotted Iraqi oil, Saddam wouldnt have been living in million dollar palaces, wouldnt have the monetary resources to hold on to power, and would eventually be overthrown. Sooner or later they will wisen up and want to become a part of the global community instead of fighting against it.
brink of war is a bit doomsday, besides those countries are hated about as much as the US :tounge: anyways, isn’t this a car board not politics, these discussions are boring and are exactly why i got out of politics and the like. i’ll see you guys later, this topic is just running in circles and i’m tired :embarass:
Originally posted by ShalerPunk
how are we gonna get the Soviet Union to go along with our agenda? They haven’t spoken to us in a decade…:tounge:
:fawk:
I havent slept since yesterday.
Originally posted by Darkstar
And this is the basis for 99.9% of our political disagrements. You feel there should be “faith based thinking”. Thats not what the founding fathers of our country intended. I believe that the church should be completly and unequivicably seperate. I think that introducing religion into government is a disaster waiting to happen. Well, i should say a disaster thats STARTING to happen, thanks to good ol GWB. He is pushing his religions moral standard on America. The reason he doesnt want gays to marry is because it says so in his religion. The reason he doesnt want Stern types on the air is because of the standard of decency his religion mandates. I, as well as millions of other people, were not offended by his show. Sure, its tasteless and crude, but the Constitution protects tasteless and crude speach the same as it does any other type of speach. There should be no decency standard. Here we go with the “free market” thing again. If Stern offended enough people, his sponsors would yank their support and he would be off the air iin a heartbeat. The federal government should not be in the censorship business. And GWB wants to amend the constitution to ban gay marraiges. That is by far the most retarded thing ive ever heard. The Federal government is supposed to have LESS power than the states do. If they pull this off, it will be a SAD day for America. When the Federal government tells states that they arent smart enough to make up their own laws anymore. That they dont know what’s best for them. Its soo much deeper than 99.9% of the people out there realize. Its really saddenning, how little the average american cares about politics. Over the past 200+ years, millions of people have died to make this country what it is today, and people cant even stop watching MTV or Survivor long enough to even know what the hell either canidate stands for./rant
sorry. :embarass:
Too much stuff to comment on everything. Here are a few points. As for the decency thing, to me it’s not an issue of what my church says, it’s what I feel should be broadcast to public radio that can be accessed by children. Maybe when you have kids you will see things differently. I hope so for their sake.
As for the gay rights thing. Yes it should be a state decision, but what happens when adam and steve that live in NY but go to MA to get “unioned” and come back to NY wanting the same rights as a married couple? NY does not allow gay marriage, but has to honor other state’s unions. That’s why we need a national policy on the issue.
My take on the whole thing is our govt is like a big snowball rolling down hill that keeps getting bigger and bigger. I think eventaully there is going to be a revolt and it’s going to come from the middle class. We don’t have enough money to be comfortable, but we have too much to get free handouts. We do the work while the rich enjoy most of the profits and the poor live off of our taxes.
Originally posted by Black_WS6
Too much stuff to comment on everything. Here are a few points. As for the decency thing, to me it’s not an issue of what my church says, it’s what I feel should be broadcast to public radio that can be accessed by children. Maybe when you have kids you will see things differently. I hope so for their sake.As for the gay rights thing. Yes it should be a state decision, but what happens when adam and steve that live in NY but go to MA to get “unioned” and come back to NY wanting the same rights as a married couple? NY does not allow gay marriage, but has to honor other state’s unions. That’s why we need a national policy on the issue.
My take on the whole thing is our govt is like a big snowball rolling down hill that keeps getting bigger and bigger. I think eventaully there is going to be a revolt and it’s going to come from the middle class. We don’t have enough money to be comfortable, but we have too much to get free handouts. We do the work while the rich enjoy most of the profits and the poor live off of our taxes.
Parents should be responsible for their kids, not the government. Kids can access pretty much anything these days. They can find much “worse” things than Stern on tv/internet. Are we gonna ban pron on the internet because kids might see it? Are we gonna ban Sex and the City and the Chapelle Show because kids might see it? Why dont we just ban that kind of talk all together, cause i might be having a conversation that a kid might overhear. The FCC has way too much power right now. Scary power. There are no guidelines on these fines they are handing out. These radio hosts dont even know what they are and arent allowed to say, but if they say the wrong thing, they get a half million dollar fine. Thats bullshit.
as far as the gay marraige thing, that state compatibility issue can be raised for just about every state law. Like back when the legal drinking age was different in some states. If you got drunk while in New York at age 18, then crossed back over to PA where the limit is 21, what are the cops gonna do? Well, the government solved that buy threatening to cut all education money to any state that didnt have the legal drinking age be 21. Such bullshit. The fed govt should not be able to boss around the states like they do. The only REAL purpose of the federal government is for things that are VITAL to the country as a whole, like defense, currency, stuff like that. States are supposed to be little mini soverign countries. Almost like what Europe is today under the EU.
EDIT: Another more pertinent example. All you CCW people up in PA, leave your guns at home if you come down to Maryland. There are tons of people that get arrested for illegal possession of a firearm down here, even though they have PA permits.
Now, something I somewhat agree with you on. The middle class is bearing far too much of the workload for the amount of money it receives. The middle class does bust their ass to make the rich richer, and to pay for the poor. Did you know that the Libertarian party is all about eliminating welfare all together? I do think its a bit of a stretch to say that most middle class families arent living comfortably though. Living comfprtably != having everything you heart desires. You have your own house, a brand new Trans Am, and all that shit. I’d say thats quite comfortable. Even the poorest of the poor live comfortably compared to the rest of the world. But I would like to see much more of the wealth shift from the mega rich down to the middle class. Its tough though in a capitalist economy. Everyone has a fair chance to become one of those mega rich people, and its not really fair to penalize them for being able to make it.
I really, cant understand the religious right.
second corinthians 8: 13-15 (NIV)
Our desire is not that others might be reliieved while you are hard pressed, but that ther might be equality. At the present time our plenty will supply what they need, so that in turn their plenty will supply what you need. Then there will be equality, as it is written: “he who gathered much did not hve too much, and he who gathered little did not have too little.”
They must not print this stuff in republican bibles. The bible mentions homosexuals maybe a couple times but not much time is spent on it. If we are going to ban gay marriage why not throw newt gingrich in jail for adultery? Why enforce one rule and not the other.
The one of the things the bible talks the most about is warning against the evils of greed. The republican party is the poster boys for greed. The bible talks far more about helping those in need than it does about homosexuals or prayer in school.
God does not wish to have people forced into worshiping him. If you force a child to pray in school if he does not wish to pray doesn’t please God.
Originally posted by taco
[B]I really, cant understand the religious right.second corinthians 8: 13-15 (NIV)
Our desire is not that others might be reliieved while you are hard pressed, but that ther might be equality. At the present time our plenty will supply what they need, so that in turn their plenty will supply what you need. Then there will be equality, as it is written: “he who gathered much did not hve too much, and he who gathered little did not have too little.”
They must not print this stuff in republican bibles. The bible mentions homosexuals maybe a couple times but not much time is spent on it. If we are going to ban gay marriage why not throw newt gingrich in jail for adultery? Why enforce one rule and not the other.
You mean like Clinton, your “big leader”
…You cant argue that the Bible does say that homosexuality is wrong though, can you?..Didnt think so. And if you are not a Christian, then you probably don’t care anyway.The one of the things the bible talks the most about is warning against the evils of greed. The republican party is the poster boys for greed. The bible talks far more about helping those in need than it does about homosexuals or prayer in school.
I am a Republican. I am also “hard-pressed” and struggling to keep my home, cars, and everything else. The difference is, I’m not looking for a handout. I bust my ass for the money I make, and so does my wife. We have what we have, because WE work for it. Tell me why Joe-schmoe can’t go get a job. Its funny how nobody can find a job, but everywhere you turn, someone is hiring. Granted it may not be in you “field”, but i’d be damned if I lost everything and didnt try getting a job at McDonalds first. People are too good to work at the drive-thru, but not to good to live off welfare. If you have good ethics and morals, getting a job isnt hard. If you walk in all stupid, of course your not going to get a job. And if a person is rich (maybe even busted his ass to get there (no one ever thinks of that), then why should they get penalized for it? Then there is people who live off the system, you know the one’s who just cant make it on there own, cause they got into some “trouble” …everyones out fucking around, but when someone gets knocked up, it’s a big fucking tragedy. Keep you Dick in your pants and your pussy sealed, and shit like that wont happen, oh, what about those who have been in trouble with the law, yeah, you know, drug dealers, convicts, felons…lemme guess: You think those people made bad choices because the government “shorted” them…Its called stupidity, plain and simple. I’d rather die of starvation, than sell drugs for money…living every day unethically.
God does not wish to have people forced into worshiping him. If you force a child to pray in school if he does not wish to pray doesn’t please God. [/
…always viewing the negative
its not about being forced, its about wanting your kid to carry on a tradition that you did, and that you believe in. Once again, if you dont believe, dont recite it. Kind of how Democrats say turn off the TV when janet jackson tit pops out, or something bad comes on (freedom of speech, yada, yada, yada.) Well close your eyes and plug your ears. B]