Why does everybody want rid of the elevators? They are what made Buffalo.
If you tear them down you’ll just have an empty pier. People who really believe than any city in upstate NY could have a Riverwalk or Harbor District or anything like that are fooling themselves.
[QUOTE=JayS;612693]
In her better days as a Lake Erie cruise ship:[qUOTE]
you mean when she used to ram into anything that got in her way … and anything that was solidly mounted to the earths crust …
ocean freight haulers dont make good cruise ships
theres a reason its nickname is the aquaRAMa
[quote=“layzie,post:59,topic:32424"”]
i always wanted to get up in there but never got a chance to. dammit. im afraid of it, well falling in the water between it and the building.
[/quote]
haha yeah try doin that shit with full paintball gear at night. there wasnt too much on the boat. lots of shit was locked and or too hard to open. couldnt go too far into the boat without being in 100% darkness so it was like a 20 minute deal. i was half drunk and scared shitless
[quote=“BrockwayMT,post:61,topic:32424"”]
Why does everybody want rid of the elevators? They are what made Buffalo.
If you tear them down you’ll just have an empty pier. People who really believe than any city in upstate NY could have a Riverwalk or Harbor District or anything like that are fooling themselves.
[/quote]
Before I bother systematically revealing the errors in your thought process… You serious?
To answer a few questions:
They will likely drag the ship across the ocean with a tug. A floating drydock would be wayyyy too expensive, slow, and not very stable. There are thousands of tug/barge combos on the oceans everyday. This is no different, the barge just happens to be a ship.
The plan was to use the ship for gambling on the Great Lakes during the summer, then send the ship down to NYC for the winters. Gambling never came to the Great Lakes so all the plans to refit the boat were put on hold.
I know everyone thinks it’s sad that the ship got scrapped, but there’s a whole list of problems with the boat.
First off, its got the wrong hull design for a cruise ship. The hull is almost a dead ringer for a 1950’s Navy Cruiser…and it would ride like one too. I’m sure everyone has seen the old movies/videos of Navy ships in moderate seas. Back in the day, the ship was known for leaving a path of destruction everywhere it went. Its wake was so huge that it would capsize small boats.
Since it’s a passenger boat, it needs to be inspected by the US Coast Guard (USCG). During an inspection they go over EVERY last square inch of EVERYTHING. If anything is amiss, no sticker for you and the boat sits until it’s repaired. Passenger boats need to renew their COI (certificate of inspection) every 5 years with an annual reinspection every year. Part of the 5 year is a hull inspection (In fresh water it’s 5 years. In salt water, it’s every 2 years - this was another problem with going to NYC for the winter). So not only would the USCG crawl over the entire superstructure, the hull would need to be reinspected, which means the boat would have to be drydocked. Also, since the boat had been layed up, the COI lapsed. If you maintain a COI continuously, the boat is grandfathered into older regulations. To get a new COI for the Aquarama, it would have to meet every regulation for a BRAND NEW BOAT. This includes everything from machinery, fire detection and extinguishing, right down to the actual steel the boat was built out of. Just an example: on passenger boats, railings must be 39.5" high off the deck. If the railings on the Aquarama don’t meet that spec, they would all have to be changed.
Honestly, would you want to fire up the boilers on that thing and pour the steam to the main propulsion turbine??? 600* steam at 1000psi running that turbine at 30,000 rpm. No thanks. It would need a repower at the very least, probably to slow speed diesel.
Now it’s time to remodel the entire boat, at least a couple mil to make it look good again.
If they made it this far, they’d have to insure the boat. It’s not like insurance for your car… The insurance company hires a private marine surveyor to go out and resurvey the entire boat and pass their findings on to the insurance company. The insurance company reviews the findings and tells the ship owners what they want changed/fixed before they’ll cover the boat. No insurance, no sail.
So now, if you got the thing insured you still need a crew.
You need a master, 3 mates, a bunch of AB’s, boatswains, a TON of OS’s, a chief engineer, 3 assistant engineers, QMED’s, wipers, oilers, etc. And these are just the guys that make the boat go from point A to point B. You still need servers, cooks, bartenders, laundry personnell, etc. To put the cost of the crew into perspective, the ships I sailed on, the Captain was getting paid $535 a DAY…
The laundry list of expenses after the boat is sailing is staggering. Think about it for a minute… food, fuel…
So now, if someone offered you $10,000,000 for the boat…What would you do?
[quote=“Southtowns27,post:65,topic:32424"”]
… snip…
[/quote]
Information overload. :bloated:
But seriously, great post. Shows exactly why this thing is getting scrapped.
And I did not know tugs and barges operated on the open ocean. I can honestly say I learned something today. Heh.
[quote=“jrod0187,post:51,topic:32424"”]
That was one of my plans, it looked impossible to get all the equipment up there. Fun?
[/quote]
eh scary as hell at night. looks like a little war happened on the deck lol
[quote=“BrockwayMT,post:61,topic:32424"”]
Why does everybody want rid of the elevators? They are what made Buffalo.
If you tear them down you’ll just have an empty pier. People who really believe than any city in upstate NY could have a Riverwalk or Harbor District or anything like that are fooling themselves.
[/quote]
Because they are decaying eyesores with no purpose. The Frank Lloyd Wright buildings have value, big concrete tubes do not.
And of course a harbor district can be successful, you’re ignorant if you think it can’t. Ever been to Cleveland?
[quote=“JayS,post:4,topic:32424"”]
It’s going to India to be scrapped is what I was told. Guess it’s worth about 10 million in scrap.
Now this is just what I told. I found both the destination and the value a little hard to believe, but with the high price of metals I guess it’s possible.
[/quote]
It may have already been mentioned, but:
The ship is being tug’d up Welland where it will recieve a sea worthiness inspection. This makes me think that it will be tug’d across the Atlantic. IIRC a European was slated to buy it.
It was in the Buff Snooze today.
BTW - Don’t joke about india… there was a Discovery / History channel show over the weekend about the Indian iron cutters. They are no joke - albeit a bit crazy. Main point: They are the largest scrapping operation in the world. At least, according to the talking box.
FUCK THE FUCKING GRAIN ELEVATORS.
In the 1990s the Buffalo Bills MADE BUFFALO what it is, and look how long that lasted.
1901 World EXPO MADE BUFFALO what it is, woohoo we get a nod in the history books.
Bethleham Steel & shipping on the great lakes MADE BUFFALO (along with the railways), look how well thats working for us.
GET OVER IT.
“I swear to god, I’ll pistol whip the next guy that says ‘SAVE THE GRAIN ELEVATORS’.”
Dozr :squint:
[quote=“Nikuk,post:69,topic:32424"”]
It may have already been mentioned, but:
The ship is being tug’d up Welland where it will recieve a sea worthiness inspection. This makes me think that it will be tug’d across the Atlantic. IIRC a European was slated to buy it.
It was in the Buff Snooze today.
BTW - Don’t joke about india… there was a Discovery / History channel show over the weekend about the Indian iron cutters. They are no joke - albeit a bit crazy. Main point: They are the largest scrapping operation in the world. At least, according to the talking box.
[/quote]
I’m 90% sure that’s where it’s going, Alang, India. I saw that documentary too, last year I think. The stories about her claim she was a Liberty ship but I don’t see her name on the list (Originally USS Marine Star) But she’s not a Liberty ship, she’s too big. So it definitely was not designed to cross the great lakes. Here are a couple stories about it…
http://continuouswave.com/boats/aquarama/
http://niagaraculturaltourism.com/aquarama.html
http://www.buffalonews.com/cityregion/buffaloerie/story/120930.html
:tup:
[quote=“BikerFry,post:64,topic:32424"”]
Before I bother systematically revealing the errors in your thought process… You serious?
[/quote]
Yes I’m serious. And I think the concept of an eyesore is one of the stupidest concepts in American culture. If you don’t like the damn thing don’t look at.
Probably somebody will start some eyesore ruckus and they’ll get somebody to propose some wonderful plan. They’ll demolish them with promises of some giant lakefront hotel or casino or some other shit like that. They’ll only do it under condition of some giant tax breaks of course.
But then somebody will come along and find some empty paint cans or something that makes it an environemental problem. Or the developer will demand more concessions from the local government that they won’t get. Or there will be some little political tift between parties. So then you’ll end up with an empty pier and a $2 million demolition bill for the taxpayers.
Or if it does get built it will be under such ridiculous governmental concessions that it will do little good in terms of revenue for the community. And of course the work will be done by contractors from out of state using a bunch of illegals. Or they’ll just use local contractors and not pay them like Robert Congel and his pyramid group are notorious for. That’s my take on all of it. But that’s me, I’m just a cynic.
If Buffalo had a beautiful waterfront that would be great. But I don’t see it happening.
Brockway… So what you’re saying is you don’t want to spend taxpayer dollars to knock down the elevators until there is a definite plan to put something in their place? If so, I can respect that.
If you’re saying don’t knock them down because they of some great historical importance, even when something is ready to be built in their place, :gtfo:
[quote=“JayS,post:74,topic:32424"”]
Brockway… So what you’re saying is you don’t want to spend taxpayer dollars to knock down the elevators until there is a definite plan to put something in their place? If so, I can respect that.
If you’re saying don’t knock them down because they of some great historical importance, even when something is ready to be built in their place, :gtfo:
[/quote]
Yes and yes. Yes to the first thing. As for great historical importance, at least one of the grain elevators around Buffalo ought to be saved.
[quote=“JayS,post:74,topic:32424"”]
Brockway… So what you’re saying is you don’t want to spend taxpayer dollars to knock down the elevators until there is a definite plan to put something in their place? If so, I can respect that.
If you’re saying don’t knock them down because they of some great historical importance, even when something is ready to be built in their place, :gtfo:
[/quote]
Yes and yes. Yes to the first thing. As for great historical importance, at least one of the grain elevators around Buffalo ought to be saved.
I see no reason to save the grain elevators if they are just going to sit there and be untouched.
If I had a 52 Chevy and I owned it since 1952, used it for 15 years then parked it on my front lawn and never touched it. Maybe I cut some of the grass around it, but it just sat. What is that considered? Should I leave it there because it is of historical value? Or maybe I should preserve it (if possible).
But if it’s not savable or has no future use other than scrap or parts, should I dispose of it?
You can basically associate that example to the grain elevators. If they just sit there dormant, what good is it to the history of Buffalo other than saying, we USED to be a big market to the rest of the country, see, a grain elevator that was part of that time.
[quote=“JayS,post:74,topic:32424"”]
Brockway… So what you’re saying is you don’t want to spend taxpayer dollars to knock down the elevators until there is a definite plan to put something in their place? If so, I can respect that.
If you’re saying don’t knock them down because they of some great historical importance, even when something is ready to be built in their place, :gtfo:
[/quote]
And yes that one is one of the uglier ones so if some had to go…
I’d say the Great Northern and some of the others on Ganson Street and that area would be the ones to save.
Gotcha. I think we’re on the same page. I thought you were one of those people who think that because it was once important then it should be there forever. People like that I want to choke until they understand that the grain elevators were put there in the name of progress and when the time comes will be torn down in the name of progress.
Sure, spending money to tear them down just to tear them down is just as wasteful as keeping them up even if it blocks progress. Either way it’s a net loss.
That’d be cool if in 50 years the waterfront is developed and a pleasant place to go and there’s still a grain elevator with daily tours and a history of Buffalo’s industry 200 years prior, or something like that.
Update for those who care:
7/18 - Buffalo - The Marine Star, the derelict Great Lakes passenger ferry that has spent the last 12 years rusting along the Buffalo waterfront, is now on its way to Quebec, and possibly Europe. But its fate — reuse or the scrap heap — remains unknown.
The 62-year-old vessel, once the largest and most luxurious ferry on the Great Lakes, was towed away from its moorings along Fuhrmann Boulevard early Sunday morning. After spending a night in Port Colborne, Ont., where it was inspected by Canadian authorities for sea-worthiness, it worked its way through the Welland Canal on Monday, under the tow of the tugboat Radium Yellowknife.
A representative of Norlake Transportation, the Port Colborne company hired to tow the ferry, confirmed it is headed to a Quebec port. “She’s going to Three Rivers, then she’s going overseas,” said Norlake’s Ed O’Connor. “We’ve been told she’ll be in Quebec for about a month, then another company will take over and take her to Europe.”
O’Connor said the crews who prepared the ferry for departure from Buffalo last week were initially under the impression it was going to be scrapped, but now its fate is unclear. “As far as we know, she’s not scheduled to be scrapped. It’s possible somebody in Europe has a plan to do something with her,” he added.
Rumors that the long-idle ferry is destined for a scrap yard in Alang, India, have been filtering through the shipping industry for months. In late June, James Everatt, a Canadian businessman with an ownership stake in the Marine Star, insisted there were no plans to scrap the once-proud vessel.
“I don’t care what people are saying, no final decision had been made,” he told The Buffalo News. Everatt, whose ownership group floated a $40 million plan to restore the vessel, did not return phone calls Monday.
Fred Langdon, owner of South End Marina, where the ferry has been stored since 1995, said the owners provided him little information about its future. “About a month ago, they said it was being moved, but we didn’t know until about a week ago when that would happen,” Langdon said. “It was supposed to take off Saturday, but it was too windy, so they waited until Sunday morning.”
As recently as Friday, TradeWinds — a shipping publication based in Norway — cited scrap industry sources who said several brokers in Alang, the world’s ship salvage center, were negotiating to buy the Marine Star. A Great Lakes shipping source who asked not to be identified said the planned layover in Quebec indicates that Empire Cruise Lines, which owns the ferry, is continuing those talks. “The price of scrap metal is very strong, and the cost to renovate is a lot higher. She’s got scrap written all over her,” he said.
One recent estimate put its salvage value at $1 million. The Empire group is said to have paid $50,000 to $70,000 a year for dock rental, insurance and other storage-related expenses.
Built in 1945 in Chester, Pa., the Marine Star was designed as a troop transport ship to ferry U.S. troops across the Atlantic. At the end of World War II, it underwent an $8 million transformation into a luxury-class ferry. Rechristened the Aquarama, the 520-foot-long day cruiser was the biggest passenger ferry to ply the Great Lakes.
The first new liner on the Great Lakes in 20 years, it turned heads with its capacity — room for 2,500 passengers and 160 cars — as well as its style. From its glistening corrugated stainless steel exterior side panels, to interior amenities that included two dance floors, a children’s playroom with baby-sitting services, four restaurants and a cigar shop, the Aquarama was in a class of its own.
It was operated by Michigan Ohio Navigation Co., and its Detroit-Cleveland service was quite popular in the 1950s. But its massive size, a lack of overnight accommodations and high operational costs prevented its owners from turning a profit. By the mid-1960s, it was sitting idle at a Muskegon, Mich., dock where it was laid up until 1987, when it was purchased by a Port Stanley, Ont., company for $3 million. The fading Aquarama was first towed to Sarnia, then to Windsor, where it remained on the shoreline.
In 1994, Empire Cruise Lines, whose major shareholders included Everatt, bought the ferry with the idea of turning it into a floating casino and returned it to its original name. In August 1995, it was towed to South End Marina on Buffalo’s outer harbor. While legal obstacles blocked Empire Lines from converting the Marine Star to a gambling venue, the company publicly maintained a goal of turning the deteriorating ferry into a cruise liner offering top-shelf travel on the Great Lakes.From the Buffalo News
Seems more and more like the scrapyard is the final destination.