Anxiously awaiting fuzzys video… it should be entertaining
I’ll probably be up until 5am working on this you evil bastards. I’ll even upload the level so those with HL2 can play it lol.
Also i am suprised no one has mentioned the harrier. It is capable of vertical takeoff, no forces whatsoever on the wheels, they could be spinning 11tybillion rpm and it would still fly
the wheels are accelerated by the jets obviously hence the jets provide the wheels to move forward…
so my question to you then is how does this work?
how does it create the speed of lift?
and if you want to show me how this works by all means! stop in!
this will not work. as much as you guys want to think so its impossible
trust me if this worked don’t you think we would be using it today?
this , if it was able to work then flights would not get cancelled due to over runway population and they wouldn’t even have to leave their section of the airfield to take off.
that fact is that it does not work until it is proven that it does its simply not right.
the harrier has thrusters that turn and angle towards the ground providing it no reason to move.
all the work is being done right there.
the thrusters are also more powerful then airplane engines.
they are so powerful they are lifting the plane from sheer force like a rocket
its lifting it up on its own. then they tilt back to the normal postion and thrust is pushed all the way forward creating a go! baby go! effect
meaning there is no take off required it can do it from the stand still
no nONONONONONONO !!!
you realy cant be an enginieer … because your loosing it
the treadmill ONLY moves backward when the plane moves FORWARD
if the plane is parked, the treadmill automaticly parks itself
by design this question sets up the answer … because the only way for the runway to move backwards is for the plane to move forward
the plane creates lift because its moving forward !!!
And you edited your original post that said something about the belt not being able to withstand the constant abuse lol
So which is it?
ok well i was under the impression that it was going that way without the planes help… this might work then.
it seemed to me that you mean that you had to match the speed with speed already going.
you might be able to need to think about it now.
well if you knew how much a plane weighed and how much it cost and what not to make a treeadmill so to speak stand up to the abuse of that of an airplane?
plus im not a treadmill specialist or anything so i am not aware of specs that it would need to function.
it can be done yes.
but costly it would be i think.
plus moving parts = sometime it has to break and i cannot imagine it would cheap to repair.
and these ideas along with others have been implemented.
by this i mean ideas where we have simulated on a computer what could or would possibly happen. although nothing is for sure because you wuld have to build it in order to find out. computers and simulations are only guesses as to what could happen
other ideas that can share are a type of hovercraft type deal to where the wheels are replaced.
other ideas have been using rocket type jets rather then what the standard is now. it would get it up alot faster.
just alot of ides that are played with to try to make things easier.
go to page one, post # 22 … it gives a simple description of the “control system” for the runway
instead of sensors and computers to control the runway speed, its a rope and a pulley
i might see how this works… but i still do not see lift happening i guess. im not sure why this would work though. a little more explanation is needed.
your ideas and the way you are explaining it to me is great it just would seem hard to prove this theory i guess
i saw the picture i think i might be able to but imreally not that sure. i will have to run a simulation at work tomorrow but i must be off to bed.
i will run it up and have on of the computer nerds help me
and i will post my simulation results
cool, you and fuzzy make sims, I will sit back and await the results!
Goodnight!
ye i am eger to see fuzzy fish’s simulation
http://users.adelphia.net/~cdabable/test2.avi
I lack good webspace so the quality sucks more than a hoover but here it is.
I’m a bit tired, and transport tycoon owns my ass so there is about 30 minutes of work total here.
-The plane under ideal conditions can reach a maximum speed of 150 inches/s at full power. (Probably less on the ground)
-The runway is fixed at 200 inches/s when activated (50 more than the plane is even possible of reaching, and 50 more than the runway would go if it was in sync)
-The plane will take-off around 100ish
Note the following:
1.) When I start the runway it doesn’t immediately jump to 200 inches/s in reverse. The wheels are preventing that.
2.) Thrust is being applied near the prop
3.) Wheel speed is the plane speed + 200 inches/s. But not enough to stop the plane from moving forward and taking off.
Now I have to get back attempting to catch up to MPD47 and 98Red EX at transport tycoon. Then go to sleep.
If my old thermo and hydro dynamics professors read this, they would roll over in their graves.
This is only slightly less dumb of an argument than arguing wether or not if you gave a smurf a blowjob, if your tongue would turn blue. Only slightly.
If you can’t figure out if the plane would take off under its own power on a treadmill, try the opposite experiment and see what happens there. Anyone ever see those air funnels with guys “flying” in mid air with wing suits on? Amazingly enough they hover in mid air. Why? Because the force of the air pushing them from below perfectly matches the rate of decent due to gravity. Amazing? Not really.
Planes fly ( although I can argue about this point as well ) because the relativistic velocity of the air is higher across the upper wing service as compared to the lower. Absolute speed is relatively irrelevant beyond a min critical air speed. Lift is determined by the delta ( difference ) between the the flow above and the flow below. Once the pressure differential is factored ( the specific point I can argue ) if the force is great enough and minimal critical air speed is reached, the plane will “fly”.
Take a look at gliders for instance. No jets, no propulsion other than some guy running off a cliff. Is he “flying”? How does he maintain lift with no recumbant propulsion source? It’s all relative air speed as define by the wing surface and the laminar flow of the air across and below it.
All that is required is that the air speed is right. This can be a stationary aircraft with enough wind speed to create the lift ( a la Cesna’s taking off by themselves from a stationary spot during hurricanes ) or a combination of wind speed and relative plane speed as compared to the ground ( which is why carriers turn into the wind to launch and retrieve aircraft ), or simple relative plane speed ( thing commercial airliner taking off with 0 mph winds.
The thrust of the engines only pushes the plane fast enough to get the necessary air speed across its wings. Rockets/jets give you propulsion. Wings give you lift and control. Put them together you get a plane. Take them apart and you have a firework and a glider.
If you ever fly a cessna or other small plane, one critical component is to look at temperature of the surrounding air. Why? because hotter air is less dense and will produce less of a lifting force per a given air speed. So what normally might take you 750ft to take off at 100% power will now take you 850ft to take off at 100% power. Why? Because the extra length will increase your relative air speed across the wings and create the minimum critical lift necessary to overcome your mass being pulled the fuck down by gravity.
So to answer the question, unless there is a critical air speed running across the wing surface, it doesn’t matter if the plane is on a treadmill, tied to some pulley contraption, or even being carried on newman’s shoulders, it won’t fly. Until you hit that barrier, it’s a really ugly car.
So here’s a bonus discussion topic: if the above situation about the cessna is assumed to be on a 0mph wind day, what would be the necessary distance to lift off the same plane if there was a 30mph head wind? Less, more or the same?
my God…this is so annoying.
Wetwork, you are looking too deeply into this. The only thing you need to know is that the wheels are independent of the propulsion system. The wheels don’t push the plane forward, the jets do. The only thing different about this take-off, the wheels will be moving 2x’s as fast. End of story.
THE PLANE WILL TAKE OFF.
A plane will only “take flight, lift off, remove itself from the ground” if there is the air moving across its wings reaches a certain velocity. I don’t care how fast the wheels are turning. I don’t care how hard the engines are “propulsing”. I don’t care if it’s uphill, downhill, or on a treadmill or on a fucking stair master elite.
No air speed = no lift = no flight = rock. Without lift, a plane is a projectile like a bullet. Tons of air speed, no lift = drops. Notice that ground speed has ZERO to do with it.
who says there’s no air speed? I don’t get it, you’re contradicting yourself. Do you think the plane will take off or no? If you want to be correct, your answer will be “YES”
If we are talking about this image, then since it’s tied to the runway, there can be no air speed unless the entire runways is moving in relation to stationary air. Essentially an aircraft carrier at sea. Sure the treadmill may have a speed of 100mph to the left and the plane has a relativistic speed of 100 mph to the right to counter. But true air speed relativistic to the wing is 0.
If we are talking about the avi file Fuzzy posted, then the only reason the plane “took off” was because the forward motion of the plane overcame the speed of the “runway” + enough speed to create the air speed necessary over the wings to create enough lift to overcome gravity. It’s still a flawed experement and does not prove the original hypothesis.
My opinion is simple: without air flowing over the wing at a certain speed, the plane won’t take off REGARDLESS of how intricate or complex you make the propulsion system relative to the ground. Moving the treadmill at 100mph does not move the air over the wing at 100mph.