bahhh pressure loss this and that…just use a big turbo and cram the biggest friggen intercooler that can fit up front…drive fast and cram air into it…
simple…
Agreed.
Even if it’s a top mout 
which BTW, I don’t even like, but I used the stock one on my Rx7 turboII without problems for years. Probably because it’s suitably sized and designed for use with the stock turbo by the engineers at Mazda.
Well there’s a time and place for stenciling… like Frank Sprongle’s
Motorsports (4 star motorsports) on his Mitsu Evo VI, on the cover of Inside Track News winning the Tall Pines Rally. Great advertising for his rally prep business!
Your neighbour… well he’s got problems by the sound of it
when did this happen? i haven’t been keeping with the updates so i dunno.
You know that every 90* bend is equivalent to approximatly 3 ft, of straight tube to be pressurized right, and with a front mount intercooler lets see, 1,2,3,3.5,4,5,6 approx, plus the actual length of tubing plus the huge empty box on the front of the car, +20ft tubing 3" then this huge intercooler. now compare with my setup, 1,2,3, 90* bends and about 1’ extra straight, and a medium (larger than stock) intercooler, so thats 10’ at 2 1/4 - 2.5 " tubing, med intercooler. Which one is going to spool faster? sure when your at like 6000rpm boosting 1atm you are going to be alot stronger on the front mount, now sure because you mounted it on the front there will be cooling hence more efficent compression but is it worth it? What quailifies for adequate cooling of an intercooler? going 120 kph down a highway? i’m pretty sure it will be about the same as going 60kph down the street, which would be equal to going 80 with a hoodscoop blowing air down. Lets say we are at a track, you can have your HUGE fmic, i’ll have my humble top/side. we take off, i destroy you off the line because i start spooling under 2000rpm, you finally reach spool at 4000, but sadly we are the first turn you have to slow down, uhoh depressurized the whole system you accelerate out of the turn but theres a huge lag, oh no it kicks in giving you too much power your back end brakes loose and you spin out, i hit that turn before you and i start accelerating out of the turn and get imidiate spooling and drive out. (this is a little drastic of a situation). but don’t worry you’ll beat me during our 200kph race straight down the highway because you know how often that happens :roll: .
But whatever, i think my setup is great and people disagree, i do have a cooling issue but i am water cooling it so it’ll all be cool soon and i will not have to drastically have to cut my hood, so i am keeping my car just as aerodynamic as yours. I get a good amount of acceleration with mine which fits how i drive, i can break loose easily np, loads of torque.
BTW that pic is great i think we should all look at it again and laugh.
WERD.
See you have to be as old as ADAM to figure that one out 
I think its safe to say most people with a large FMIC like a GReddy RSPL
like the Drift Farm peeps all plan on upgrading a larger turbo and don’t
really care much about the POS T25 that comes beaten and abused from
J-Pan
[quote=“Racer 240sX”]
when did this happen? i haven’t been keeping with the updates so i dunno.
You know that every 90* bend is equivalent to approximatly 3 ft, of straight tube to be pressurized right, and with a front mount intercooler lets see, 1,2,3,3.5,4,5,6 approx, plus the actual length of tubing plus the huge empty box on the front of the car, +20ft tubing 3" then this huge intercooler. now compare with my setup, 1,2,3, 90* bends and about 1’ extra straight, and a medium (larger than stock) intercooler, so thats 10’ at 2 1/4 - 2.5 " tubing, med intercooler. Which one is going to spool faster? sure when your at like 6000rpm boosting 1atm you are going to be alot stronger on the front mount, now sure because you mounted it on the front there will be cooling hence more efficent compression but is it worth it? What quailifies for adequate cooling of an intercooler? going 120 kph down a highway? i’m pretty sure it will be about the same as going 60kph down the street, which would be equal to going 80 with a hoodscoop blowing air down. Lets say we are at a track, you can have your HUGE fmic, i’ll have my humble top/side. we take off, i destroy you off the line because i start spooling under 2000rpm, you finally reach spool at 4000, but sadly we are the first turn you have to slow down, uhoh depressurized the whole system you accelerate out of the turn but theres a huge lag, oh no it kicks in giving you too much power your back end brakes loose and you spin out, i hit that turn before you and i start accelerating out of the turn and get imidiate spooling and drive out. (this is a little drastic of a situation). but don’t worry you’ll beat me during our 200kph race straight down the highway because you know how often that happens :roll: .
But whatever, i think my setup is great and people disagree, i do have a cooling issue but i am water cooling it so it’ll all be cool soon and i will not have to drastically have to cut my hood, so i am keeping my car just as aerodynamic as yours. I get a good amount of acceleration with mine which fits how i drive, i can break loose easily np, loads of torque.
BTW that pic is great i think we should all look at it again and laugh.[/quote]
ya, but you gotta remember Nik, some people are running much better set ups, higher boost, better flowing system overall, etc etc. And your piping is not that much shorter, besides, u say yourself you have a problem with overheating. All in all, i don’t think that your set up can be counted as top mount it’s more like… intercooler where it’s not supposed to be 
but i’m not saying that i don’t like it
heh … my huge FMIC? You mean my SMIC that was jammed into the front valence and ducted?
And my big 16 spools PDQ thank you very much … even with my lowly SOHC 
And yeah, even a TMIC can be the best solution for your setup. But in my mind, putting a TMIC on a 240, then scooping/cutting to get air to it, rather than using the nice space in the chin seems counter productive, and a “bling” item to use on a 240.
If your car came with a TMIC from the factory, you know a team of engineers was responsible, so odds are they knew what they were doing.
As for water cooling or c02 cooling an IC (FMIC/SMIC/TMIC everybody now)
I have a pretty cool DIY on the cheap to force cool an intercooler if you’re interested.
sorry mr200 i thought you were pro FMIC, so i was saying that you had one in theory maybe not in real life, just an example.
And can a team of engineers count as one engineer? and dont worry i’ve got a nice watercooling system i’m developing but thanks for the offer.
Comparing intercooler setups, the overall length of pipe might be only alittle bit larger than mine, but like i mentioned about the bends, that is a big problem (something i get to study in a couple of years) i feel that my setup helps eliminate that problem, but yeah heating is currently a problem but this will be dealt with soon. Yeah not everyones a fan, but the people that do like it are people that i have great respect for because of there knowledge of the subject and there understanding.
I call mine a Tide mount intercooler :o and i feel it fits perfectly where it is.
you guys are smoking crack…
“Lets say we are at a track, you can have your HUGE fmic, i’ll have my humble top/side. we take off, i destroy you off the line because i start spooling under 2000rpm, you finally reach spool at 4000, but sadly we are the first turn you have to slow down, uhoh depressurized the whole system you accelerate out of the turn but theres a huge lag, oh no it kicks in giving you too much power your back end brakes loose and you spin out, i hit that turn before you and i start accelerating out of the turn and get imidiate spooling and drive out.”
1=when do you launch off the line at 2000rpm? never…so who cares if it spools at 2000rpm…if we were driving diesel dump trucks then yes maybe…
2=when racing once the turbo is spooled …when shifting…it does not have to spool up again…the power is instantly there…
as corkey bell says…
small turbos give the “impression” that the car has power…but after the little runt gives a short burst of speed thats all it has to offer, where as what we are really after is sheer power, and that comes from large turbos…
i think the internet/performance community has cast some sort of “turbo lag” hysteria on the world…its a bunch of crap…
as long as the engine can produce enough flow to power the turbo…the larger turbo will always win out…
why…
it can power a larger compressor, has less back pressure, and generates less heat…thus more efficiency…thus more power…
if any of you think that a t25 or t28, will out perform a t3, or t4 you are smoking crack…
they will take you …off the line, mid speed, and top end…
guys…once the car is moving and or revved up…lag is not an issue…
we rae looking for RAW power are we not? this is not some OEM design team building street cars for old ladies…that want a “peppy” car…
WE WANT AN ASS RIPPING…GRABBING FOR 6TH GEAR…HOLD ON FOR HELL, TIRES GRABBING FOR TRACTION…TYPE MACHINES …NO?
now if anyone wants to justity why OEM mfg’s choose certain design methods…thats another issue…but believe me performance is NOT high on thier list 
That’s a pretty broad statement to make.
And considering a ceramic T28 has the same compressor as a T3
Big turbos don’t win races.
Otherwise all these guys running Cummins turbo sized turbos on drag Supras would be killing us all on the road course.
Raw power? I’ll drive the Charger for that thanks …
I’m looking for affordable performance without displacement.
And as much as I’d love to have thousands to drop on a T3/4 … I don’t think my SOHC 1.8 can move enough air to spool one, and my $200 turbo can generate more CFM than the poor engine can handle.
And I’m confident it can hang with a lot of high dollar T3/4 cars.
i was under the impression that this debate was regarding the same size turbo, just different IC setups, of course the larger turbo will give more power even though there would be a lag, my whole point was on a T25. And when drifting a car the quicker a car spools up is important, i’ve never driven a car at a track but i would assume that the turbo doesn’t spool the entire time but i’m not sure.
I also assumed this debate was with street cars, like ones with blow off valves where they are losing compression.
As they say… different strokes for different folks.
Lot’s of valid points, but lots of different uses, restrictions, requirements etc. You’ll never get everyone to agree on anything, let alone a hot topic like turbo size, FMIC size, turbo lag…
So Adam, I’ve never driven anything with a BIG turbo, how do you keep it spooled all the time? Surely in slow corners you must soemtimes exit without boost and have it kick you so hard in the ass you don’t know which way to turn the wheel to go straight…no?
-Martin.
Just a couple questions, no(t much) disrespect intended
mr200 -
- How old are you?
- How much time have you spent behind a turbo?
- How much track driving experience do you have?
- How much racing experience do you have?
- How many hours (years) have you spent building turbo and N/A race machines?
- What car(s) do you own and drive daily? Is the 1.8L SOHC you refer to in a Civic?
Phrases such as “talking out of your ass” have been floating around in my head while reading this, I just want to make sure they don’t apply to you
I am not yet crazy enough to argue with Martin, since my resume cant compete with a fraction of his experience… nor can most of the people here.
Martin pWns j00 f00.
Martin knows what hes talking about, 'nuff said.
ahhhh…thats what blow off valves are FOR…they blow off the air charge so that when the throttle plate slams shut it does not send a shock wave back to the compressor and slow it down…when the BOV opens it releases the pressurized air and keeps the turbo spooled…it keeps lag to a minimum
hi martin,
even with the .63ar turbine the power comes on very instantly…15psi boost is made pretty much instantly when racing on the track…there is no noticable delay…it just stays spooled…when slowing to go into a corner…and backing off the gas…the BOV just keeps chattering for several seconds…by then you are around the corner and on the gas again…basically partial throttle thru the corner is enough to keep it spooled…as for power delivery…yes you must roll on it in the corner…but on the straight just let it go and try to keep traction…
will see this year how the very large .84ar turbine reacts racing…i suspect that it will take a little longer to spool…but the top end benifits and heat rejection benifits will FAR outweigh th eslight lag increase created by the large turbine housing…
ask philip how long it takes the car to spool up…its actually quite violent…so for me delaying the spoolup by maybe 500rpm will be great since it will allow a slight bit of softness to the system…
what wins races then?
small turbos pumping out heat cause they are out of thier efficiency range?
i 100% agree the turbo MUST be sized to the engine displacement, and to the intended application…
but mark my words…a person who designs a turbo system for speed, vs OEM streetability…these are 2 vastly different type systems…and turbo lag is the moniker of the street system…not a race system…
when you are full out…the engine never leaves its power band…so spoling the turbo is not an issue…now if you are doddling on the highway, and are to lazy to downshift…then yes lag is an issue…or if you bog the motor down off the line…yes lag is an issue…but that has nothing to do with going fast
he he thats what i would say about the SR power delivery as well…silky smooth with no perception of a turbo even being on the engine…
but what does that really mean…
thats what’s fun about NOS …(even more so than a turbo which i consider a “soft” power adder) NOS hits you like a hammer…you can say …“holy shit” thats a power adder …
Adam I’ve never raced a turbo car, mine were all NA, but I’ve read many articles and quotes over the years from engineers and drivers about turbo lag. As recently as the intro of the Audi R8, the engineers bragged about how little turbo lag there is.
From Johnny Herbert
“The revised engine impressed me - it was so smooth and had almost no turbo-lag. The chassis was also an improvement, particularly regarding traction”
[/quote]
Not much disrespect taken.
I’m 25 years old … and behind a turbo? Well, over a year on this car. And been up to my knuckles in DSMs for a while now. I also helped a friend build a GLHS years ago.
How many hours have I spent building NA race machines? Well, let’s see … 10 years at about 12 hours a day if the weather is nice … not much in the winter time.
And I think 11.3 with less than $5,000 invested in the car at the tender age of 17 speaks enough about building NAs.
What cars do I own? Well right now at my apartment I have my '72 Charger, FJ6 Green, B series big block (short stroke big block) 727 auto, all the usual goodies, runs consistent low 13s on street tires with “full-ish” exhaust. My daily driver is not a Honda. And if you knew a bit about Nissans, you’d know that they had a turbo 1.8 SOHC engine. In a car called a Silvia. And it was faster than it’s big brother.
I also have a '68 Mercury Cougar 289 2bbl up in storage, waiting for either me to have the time and money to do something with it, or someone to come along and throw money at me.
My track experience was pretty much limited to school and a few hot laps done with a Challenger class car … couldn’t afford to actually race competitively so I helped out instead.
My track experience is limited to IROC and a Toyota-powered open wheel. Prior to that I did some autocross in a friend’s GLHS almost 10 years ago back at what was then called the Corel Centre.
Unless dragstrips count as “tracks” to you … then my track experience would be, well, weekly.
And ADAM, although it might sound like I was disagreeing with your statement (there’s no doubt in my mind your 240 would eat me on the track) and in fact I’ve been waving your flag on the S12 site in our raging SR20DET vs KA24ET wars there.
I just thought it was a pretty broad statement to make. I mean some turbo coupe Tbirds came with T3s, but would get annihalated by cars with much smaller turbos.
Can your car sit in stop and go traffic for 45 minutes? I would love to have a car I could designate as a “track only” car … but I can’t justufy taking a car out of street duty.
I also enjoy having power on tap even when I’m not “full out” like 5th gear passing.
Although you may have the luxury of owning a really nice race car, some of us want a street car that performs at least respectively on a track and can get you there and home.
I think a lot of this LAG conversation stems from people building 7:1 motors and stuffing 30 psi of boost into it. Then they complain that off boost it’s “laggy”. When in all actuality, that’s what a 7:1 motor feels like. Or maybe guys with mostrous T4s and FMICs on 1.6 SOHC Hondas …
I’m running about 14-5 (it spikes to 16 in 1st) psi of boost, and the only time it “lags” is when I do something dumb or lazy and just leave it in gear instead of downshifting. But it’s a hell of a lot faster than it was on the stock T2.
I’m not arguing with Martin … nor am I trying to say I know more than anyone else. I’m relating my experience and opinions based on that experience.
Hey mr200, that’s pretty impressive for a young’un 
BTW… The Corel Center (formerly known as the Palladium) didn’t open until 1996. I’ve done a few of the MCO autocrosses there over the years.
What a GLHS?
-Martin.
its a dodge omni