so you want others to live in ditches/ have absolutely no money, just so you can avoid a one penny per stock tax?
god, what a waste of time. republians knew there bill had a snow balls chance in hell of passing, yet they wait till the last minute to push another bullshit bill thru. This country is doomed, we need the clinton era back where republicans and democrats actually worked together instead of against.
---------- Post added at 07:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:15 PM ----------
welcome to the new coorperate america. Soon to be third world america where the rich are ungodly rich and the rest are just poor. what made america great was its middle class, which is a dieing breed. 
I only want the lazy people to live in ditches. If you think giving the govt money is the answer you must not be paying attention.
ROFL @ living in ditches. Get real. I can’t even reply to your reply seriously after reading that.
It’s not about the penny…you give them a penny they spend a quarter. It’s about NOT addressing the REAL issues.
I have invested 5 years of my life in order to be able to trade and profit. Let’s just call that a Bachelors degree for simplicity sake.
Do you have a BA degree? If yes…how about you are forced to pay a penny extra on every dollar you earn due to gaining your education? Is that fair or reasonable?
You already make more and are taxed more…but let’s pull an additional fee out of you…just because you’re educated. Sounds great.
You’re profile says Ontario but you sound like a typical American. Hand outs from the pocket of someone that has earned something isn’t the answer. Let me guess…you want the working class “rich” to be taxed 70% as well, right? Punish people for succeeding and working their ass off to get ahead, no thanks. At the end of the day all this debt ceiling shit means nothing because they are simply pushing more and more MIDDLE CLASS folks into poverty. Who benefits from this? The leeches that take entitlement benefits when they are able bodied and the elite wealthy that make up 10% yet hold 90% of the wealth.
---------- Post added at 07:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:26 PM ----------
Bro…you do realize the Clinton era fucked with CPI calculations to look like they had a surplus and Greenspan/Clinton tag teamed to make lending insanely easy, right? They were the springboard for the housing/lending bubble if we’re being honest. Clinton also helped push the issue for de-regulation of financial markets. I could dig deeper but don’t think it’s needed. I do fully agree with the middle class comment though…see above. 
---------- Post added at 07:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:29 PM ----------
AMEN BROTHER!
im not agreeing with taxing trades specifically but your arguement against it is only logical. logic and taxes don’t really go hand in hand.
stock trading is a luxury, you need to have disposable income, internet etc. meaning you’re rich… meaning you wont miss that penny and won’t fight very hard to prevent it… which means it’s an easily executed form of tax and therefore quite reasonable to implement.
italy and greece and various other nations tax the rich like this since they cannot effectively tax their general population for whatever reasons. So they tax the shit out of gas and TV’s which technically aren’t luxury items but if you need gas you can afford to go somewhere and if you want a nice TV you can afford to not be working 
moreover, American’s in general are way under taxed so your penny per trade is really bullshit anyways. When you’re paying 20% more income or luxury taxes and 80% more sales tax then you can cry about taxes That’s what we have in Canada basically.
We still have bullshit gov’t spending (e-health, gun control, sponsorship) and corruption (every municipality in the province of Quebec), but since we’re over taxed and over regulated we’re in good shape. Germany is similar. Therefore, you need WAY more taxes and WAY more regulation
Either that or a solitary political party with no hope of regime change, like china. It may be crap but at least it’s efficient in that there are no nuisances like meaningful voting, or choices or general democracy or other things that get in the way of actually getting things done.
I’m not saying we are taxed overly high in the US, don’t twist my words please. I’m saying the tax burden isn’t evenly distributed % wise. The argument is made often that the rich pay $xxxxxxxxxxx but the percentage is never looked at. The only way to divide something like taxes fairly is a % not a dollar amount. The above doesn’t even touch on the loopholes which I would hope we can all agree are bullshit.
Can’t we focus on the core issue which is that the government is too big and their spending has been out of hand for a LOOOONNNGGGG time?
Their poor management of the currency is the reason we are fucked. It’s not fair to expect the working class to pay for everyone elses fuckups, entitlements and/or loopholes.
The issue, which I touched on it earlier, is that the US Dollar is CURRENCY not “money”. They have gone well beyond what the currency is worth fundamentally. No amount of taxation on the working class will solve that. You need to allow proper deflation and/or reset the game. The “money” we slave for is really just currency and it’s a rather unknown issue. We’re struggling to earn the same sized slice of pie each year. It’s a pie filled with shit, only we don’t think of it as “shit pie” because the currency lets us easily transact. Currency should only be considered legitimate when backed by assets that exceed the amount of currency in circulation. Well, and if the currency is kept under no/reasonable inflation of course.
I’m not anti fiat currency. I’m anti leverage, anti fractional reserve lending. I’m also anti consumer credit because credit should only be used to enable reasonable fundamental growth, not consumption.
Why shouldn’t taxation be “logical”? Why shouldn’t currency management also be bound to logic?
Added—
I’m not for de-regulation at all. I failed to touch on that in the above ranting. LOL.
I think a government with the people’s best interest in mind is what we need. Sadly I don’t suspect I’ll ever get to see that in my lifetime.
Also the only reason we are taxed low as you suggested (and I agree with), is that we’re looking at the tax level in relation to the TRILLIONS in diluted currency we have outstanding. On a fundamental level we are taxed rather HIGH I believe. That’s because the currency has been abused.
In for the revolution.
we’re not disagreeing it’s just that i find it futile to suggest hitting reset.
you’ve got a bunch of morons in office, just like most nations, and it’s not in their interest to hit reset. It’s in their interest to leach off the system for as long as possible and to find ways of keeping the system barely afloat.
incremental taxes will do that
I love how you ask these questions, playing coy. Then you open up with some deep insight you clearly sandbagged all along. 
I’ve watched you do this several times on hot button issues. You always spark reactions…good work.
I agree it’s ideological to suggest a reset. Though it’s no more insane than suggesting additional fees for traders/investors. And certainly not any more insane than just doing what we have been doing, as I see it anyhow. We agree that the rich (and the politicians they have in their pocket) have no intention or interest in a reset or even trying to impact the deficit. I know the logical solution and I also know and understand the reality.
I wasn’t sure of the number but I heard it on Sunday Morning on CBS, WE OWE THE FEDERAL RESERVE BANK $1.6 TRILLION in interest. I can’t stress enough how this is a complete robbery of the USA. If you don’t understand why then do yourself a favor and educate yourself. I will clue you in on this at least; no money is printed for interest, figure that one out!
Didn’t read any of the posts yet, but my take on it is that the US is trying to depreciate their currency to counter that of China. Also, waiting last minute for this deal thing to happen (It’s going to pass no matter what, they want to dramatize it to have more effect on the stock markets.)
The US has a good amount of GOLD reserves, and they will probably sell it off after Tuesday (which is why they are going to make this deal thing happen last minute as possible so everyone runs to gold, and they sell high = MAD $$$)
The US won’t default. They just won’t. It would cause WAY too much uncertainty in an already fragile GLOBAL “recovery”.
What are you basing that on? I wouldn’t be surprised if The US gold supply had dwindled dramitically over the years. Ron Paul wants to take a look at Fort Knox since the public hasn’t seen any gold there since 1957. We did sell a crap load of it to India a couple years ago.
So it passed. The Pres is still convinced trickle up economics works. :facepalm:
NOT WORK SAFE due to loud, naughty words. Sorry it is a little late but, still good to watch…
Feloniuos Munk
I read this on another forum and though it would stir some good debate here…
There is a way we could eliminate the national debt in one single year without impacting the markets at all, and without causing any inflation. However, it would require a major overhaul of the entire banking system and the elimination of fractional reserve banking. Private banks, through the use of fractional reserve banking, have created over 90% of our inflation.
I’m probably preaching to the choir here when I say we need to get rid of the fractional and Federal Reserve systems. The Fed has caused more financial instability than any other system in US history.
Quote from: --Milton Friedman, economist
The stock of money,. prices, and output was decidedly more unstable after the establishment of the federal reserve system than before. The most dramatic period of instability in output was, of course, the period betwen the two wars, which includes the severe monetary contractions of 1920-21, 1929-33, and 1937-38. No other 20-year period in American history contains as many as three such severe contractions.At least a third of the price rise during and just after WWI is attributable to the establishment of the Federal Reserve System and the severity of each of the major contractions - 1920-21, 1929-33, and 1937-38 - is directly attributable to the acts of comission and omission by the Reserve authorities.
Any system which gives so much power, and so much discretion to a few men, so that mistakes- excusable or not - can have such far reaching effects, is a bad system. It is a bad system to believers in freedom just because it gives a few men such power without any effective check by the body politic – this is the key political argument against an independent central bank.
So what is the solution to our debt problem? It’s actually very simple and would have virtually no impact on the markets or the way we go about our day-to-day lives.
Quote
We can get our country totally out of debt in one to two years by simply paying off these US Bonds with debt-free US Notes just like Lincoln issued.Of course, that by itself would create tremendous inflation since our currency is presently multiplied by the fractional reserve banking system. But here’s the ingenious solution, advanced in part by Milton Friedman, to keep the money supply stable and avoid inflation and deflation while the debt is retired.
As the treasury buys up it’s bonds on the open market with US Notes, the reserve requirements of your home-town local bank will be proportionally raised so the amount of money in circulation remains constant. As those holding bonds are paid off with US Notes they will deposit this money thus making available the currency then needed by the banks to increase the reserves. Once all the US Bonds are replaced with US Notes, banks will be at 100% reserve banking instead of the fractional reserve system currently in use.
From this point on the former Fed buildings will only be needed as a central clearing house for checks and as vaults for US Notes. The Federal Reserve Act will no longer be necessary and could be repealed. Monetary power can be transferred back to the treasury department. There would be no further creation or contraction of money by banks.
By doing it this way, our national debt can be paid off in a single year or so, and the Fed and fractional reserve banking abolished without national bankruptcy, financial collapse, inflation or deflation, or any significant change in the way that the average American goes about his business.
To the average person, the primary difference would be, that for the first time since the Federal Reserve Act was passed in 1913, taxes could begin to go down.
Here are the main provisions of the Monetary Reform act which needs to be passed by Congress.
Quote
- Pay off the debt with debt-free U.S. Notes.
- If the US can issue a dollar bond, it can issue a dollar bill; they both rest purely on the faith and credit of the US Government. This amounts to a simple substitution of one type of government obligation with another. One bears interest, the other doesn’t.
- Abolish Fractional Reserve Banking. As the debt is paid off, the reserve requirements of all banks and financial institutions would be raised proportionally and at the same time to absorb the new US Notes which would be deposited and become the banks’ increased reserves.
- Towards the end of the first year of the transition period the remaining liabilities of financial institutions would be assumed or acquired by the US Government in a one-time operation. In other words, they too would be eventually paid off with debt-free US Notes in order to keep the total money supply stable.
At the end of the first year of so, all of the national debt would be paid and we could start enjoying the benefits of full reserve banking. The Fed would be obsolete and anachronism.
3. Repeal the Federal Reserve Act of 1913 and the National Banking act of 1864.
- These acts delegate the money power to a private banking monopoly. They must be repealed and the money power handed back to the department of treasury where they were initially under president Abraham Lincoln. No banker or person in any way affiliated with financial institutions should be allowed to regulate banking.
After the first two reforms these acts would serve no useful purpose anyway since they relate to a fractional reserve banking system.
4. Withdraw the U.S. from the IMF, the BIS, and the World Bank.
- These institutions, like the Federal Reserve, are designed to further centralize the power of the international bankers over the world’s economy and the US must withdraw from them.
Their harmless functions, such as currency exchange, can be accomplished either nationally or new organizations limited to those functions.
Such a monetary reform act would guarantee that the amount of money in circulation would stay very stable, causing neither inflation nor deflation. Remember, the fed has been doubling the American money supply every 10 years. That fact, combined with fractional reserve banking, are the real causes of inflation and the reduction in our buying power, a hidden tax.
The money supply should increase slowly to keep prices stable, roughly in proportion to population growth, about 3% per year. Not at the whim of a group of bankers meeting in secret.
In fact, all future decisions on how much money will be in the American economy must be made basted on statistics of population growth and the price level index.
The new monetary regulators in the Treasury Department, perhaps called the Monetary Committee, would have absolutely no discretion in this matter except in time of declared war. This will insure a steady, stable money growth of roughly 3% per year resulting in stable prices and no sharp changes in the money supply.
To make certain the process is completely open and honest, all deliberations must be public, not secret as meetings of the Fed’s board of governors are today.
How do we know that this will work? Because these steps remove the major causes of economic instability: The Fed, Fractional Reserve Banking, and the BIS (Bank of International Settlements).
But most importantly, the danger of a severe depression would be eliminated. Let’s see what Milton Friedman says is the single economic cause of financial depressions.
Quote from: Milton Friedman
I know of no severe depression, in any country or any time, that was not accompanied by a sharp decline in the stock of money, and equally of no sharp decline in the stock of money that was not accompanied by a severe depression.Issuing our own currency is not a radical solution. It was advocated by presidents Jefferson, Madison, Jackson, Van Buren, and Lincoln. Perhaps the best example is one of the small islands of the coast of France in the English Channel. Called Guernsey, it has been using debt-free money issues to pay for large building projects for nearly 200 years.
Guernsey is an example of just how well a debt-free money system can work. In 1815, a committee was appointed to investigate how best to finance a new market. The impoverished island could not afford more new taxes, so the State’s fathers decided to issue their own paper money. They were just colorful paper notes, backed by nothing, but the people of this tiny island agreed to accept them and trade with them.
To be sure they circulated widely, they were declared to be “good for the payment of taxes.” Of course this idea was nothing new. It was exactly what America had done before the American Revolution and there are many other examples throughout the world. But it was new to Guernsey, and it worked. The market is still in use, and remember, it was built with no debt to the people of this island state.
But what if we follow Guernsey’s example? The resulting advantages would include: no more bank runs; bank failures would be very rare (on the rare massive theft); the national debt would be entirely paid-off; the monetary, banking, and tax system would be more efficient and simplified; significant inflation and deflation would be eliminated; booms and busts would be reduced to insignificance; banker control of our industry and political life would end.
How would the bankers react to these reforms? Certainly the international bankers’ cartel will oppose reforms that do away with their control of the world’s economies, as they have in the past. But it is equally certain that Congress has the Constitutional authority and responsibility to authorize the issuance of debt free money - U.S. Notes, just the same as Lincoln’s Greenbacks, and to reform the very banking laws it ill-advisedly enacted.
Undoubtedly, the bankers will claim that issuing debt-free money will cause severe inflation or make other dire predictions, but remember, it is fractional reserve banking which is the real cause of over 90% of all inflation - not whether debt-free U.S. Notes are used to pay for government deficits. The simultaneous transition to full reserve banking will absorb the new notes, thus preventing inflation, while stabilizing banking and the economy.
In the current system, any spending excesses on the part of Congress, are turned into more U.S. debt bonds. The 10% of the bonds purchased by the Fed (in order to provide the high-powered money liquidity in the capital markets needed to purchase of the rest of the new bonds), are then multiplied ten times over by the bankers, causing over 90% of all inflation.
Quote from: Sir Josiah Stamp
Banking is conceived in iniquity and born in sin. Bankers own the earth. Take it away from them, but leave the power to create money and control credit, and with the flick of a pen they will create enough money to buy it back again. Take this great power away from the bankers and all great fortunes like mine will disappear, and they ought to disappear, for this would be a better and happier world to live in.But if you want to continue the slaves of bankers and pay the cost of your own slavery, let them continue to create money and to control credit.
Remember that only a severe contraction of our money supply can cause a severe depression. The stock market crash of 1929 only wiped out market speculators, mostly the small to medium ones, resulting in $3B in wealth changing hands. But it served as a smokescreen for a 33% contraction of credit by the Fed over the next 4 years which resulted in over $40B of wealth of the American middle class being transferred to the big banks.
Then, despite of impotent howls of protest from a divided congress, the Fed kept the money supply contracted for a full decade. Only WWII ended the terrible suffering the Fed inflicted on the American people.
If we start to act to reform the monetary system the money changers may do what they did in 1929 and then the 1930s: Crash the stock market and use that as a smokescreen for contracting the money supply.
But if we’re determined to fight to regain control of our money we can come out of it fairly quickly, perhaps in only a very few months as US Notes begin to circulate and replace the money withdrawn by the bankers. The longer we wait, the greater the danger that we’ll permanently lose control of our nation.Right now, we can’t even elect the people that make our money; the privately owned Fed can do whatever the hell they want without any oversight.
After Ron Paul finally got a “soft audit” of the Fed, he found that the Federal Reserve had loaned out $16 trillion dollars to foreign banks between Dec '07 and June '10. That’s trillion with a “T” in front. This single central bank has more financial power than the entire United States.
It hasn’t been done for the same reason we got into the mess in the first place.
There are two problems with getting this fixed, IMO. 1) Not many see the solution and 2) People with a lot of money and influence stand to lose from this solution; right now they are able to make fortunes from boom to bust, having so much influence that they can literally create the booms and busts.
Notice that every president after Andrew Jackson that has tried to get us out from under the power of the central banks has been assassinated.
Another take:
The problem with principal reduction to market value is it punishes the homebuyers that were actually smart about how they bought their houses. If me and my next-door neighbor have identical houses (to be accurate we should be in Vegas or Florida, but whatever) , but I put 20% down, got a better purchase price and took out a fixed rate mortgage, and I owe about 70% of the original amount, which is right around market value now… He took out an interest-only 100% mortgage, owes the whole original amount, and now he’d be even with me in amount owed? We all know banks don’t eat any reductions in profitability…they only mark everything else up. Principal reduction would have to be across the board, if it’s only for those that owe more than market value it’d be hurting all other homeowners to help the dumbest ones.
My stance here is not any different from my stance the bailout packages. Either we’re capitalist or we’re not…it’s simple. Helping out dumb muthafuckas isn’t capitalism, whether they are GM, AIT, financial institutions or idiot home buyers. If you got into something you cannot afford GTFO. The bank can hold the asset and use the interest collected to offset their losses. The only recourse the bank has is to ding your credit score…that’s the system we play by. Let the inflated perceived value be sucked out, or prolong the doom we all face. Easy decision IMO.
Bump for the further destruction of this country by DC. If there was a spark or glimmer of hope for this economy DC is going to piss on it. All of the occupiers should be in DC right now but unfortunately they also are clueless.
OWS are dis-organized and clueless IMO. Sad because I’d like to see some real changes but I just can’t fathom OWS being the ones to usher in the change.