Artvoice: The Waterfront

[Mike93]

@ProgRocker

There are plenty of other vacant buildings throughout the city. Doesn’t have to be along the waterfront.

The point is something needs to be done to bring jobs and bring attraction to buffalo other than chicken wings. Buffalo also needs to keep their dicks in their pants and quit prodding them in people’s faces. Pick a spot, pick a contractor, build the fucking thing.

The vacant buildings would being great spots for the secondary stores to find homes at…

@Fry

Hrm. Did you know that Buffalo now has a Frank Lloyd Wright boathouse? He designed it in 1905 but it was never built… until 2007.

http://www.wrightsboathouse.org/

Step in the right direction at least:tup:

@Blue Eyed Devil

The irony about this whole mess is all of the RED TAPE that has completely stopped anything from happening. Think about it, ten years of nothing happening because of bullshit interference. If some local little businesses could have had the freedom to start something ten years ago who knows what would be going on down there now. Bass Pro might be in a bidding war with other big companies to get in on part of the action.
At this point why not just let someone do something? Because of fear it may not be the best thing? So the alternative is to have nothing.(?) Great fucking plan.:tup:

YES…pretty much what Quinn was speaking of in the article…

@JayS

I think a supermarket is a bad idea for an anchor store. Most people don’t do their grocery shopping on the same trip as their recreational shopping.

The way an anchor store works is it draws people in who then say, “if I have time I’ll check out some of the other stores while I’m there”. The problem with a grocery store is people will go there first since that was the reason for their trip and then not want to go anywhere else because they have a car full of perishables.

I agree downtown needs a big grocery store if you expect lots of people to live here but I don’t think it should be part of the harbor development, at least not as an anchor.

Anchor to attract consumers…which was Bass Pro, could be Ikea, Cabellas, whatever. Grocery for those who want to live down there.

[focusinprogress]

@Fry

Lets start by bulldozing Bethlehem Steel, the ghetto that used to be the suburbs of Bethlehem Steel, and all of the grain elevators, and every other structure within a mile of the shoreline that hasn’t been occupied in 30 years.

Then we’d have half a city’ worth of shovel ready waterfront real estate. :bigtup:

I still think a Great Lakes cruise would be neat. Was the Aquarama the last attempt at one?

@Mike93

I’ve not been working much today, and talking with some downtown Buff residents here at work about this and some of their comments were rather interesting, and add a slightly different element to this: living on the waterfront. With such little access to common living/grocery needs…the simplest of tasks become a hassle to people living there. Why not a Wegman’s down there (for example)? Even for me living on the outskirts of downtown, I’d benefit from this. Quinn even dropped the comment that you can’t buy an apples after 5pm in downtown…kindof hard to entice people to live there. Anchor stores will bring shopping, sure, but you still need the stores to support living. Not to bring up other cities again…but the successful cold-climate cities like Minneapolis and Chicago both offer these ideas to keep residents living and spending.

Both of you guys touched on some very key points. If you look at the type of development that is ACTUALLY occurring…there are a few NEW buildings dedicated to living spaces downtown. The issue I have noticed with that, is that is it all marketed at one end of the spectrum or the other… luxury/high class or section8/poor ass people. the problem to me seems to be that they do this in close proximity to one another…so the people with money won’t move there when there is the crap area a block away. Couple that with the fact that as mike said there is not a single damn place downtown to accomplish standard shopping for the necessities associated with living downtown and no one is going to move downtown.

The other issue is politics…and its the BIGGEST issue. There is too much greed and back pocket kickbacks that no one actually interested in investing in the waterfront and downtown has no way of actually doing so. Remember the guy that wanted to build a hotel and casino out of that rusty old ship by the old saskatchewan grain elevator? He could’nt get permission to do it, so he abandoned ship (ha)…beleive it or not…immediately following that my step-grandfather wanted to purchase the saskatchewan to rennovate into a multi-use building with window-offices on the ground level, nice loft style affordable appartments, and then high class condo-style apartments at the top that would come with boat-slip space at the water…
After he made a rediculously huge offer(he owned/sold the land for the BNIA $$$$) for the land, it was sold for much less to a previous political figure, and now it continues to sit and rot.

but ultimately Fry is right…all those un-used shitty buildings and garbage that the historical society raved about saving needs to be knocked teh fuck down so NEW shit can go down there…

I was talking with a co-worker the one day while we were out doing some serveying down there and he had a pretty sweet idea… what if there was a gated camp-ground down on the waterfront…you could rent a campsite with water/power hookups, bring a camper/tents/etc. and do some canoeing/kayaking/fishing/jetski-ing and have an awesome weekend.

[drvnkd]

@Fry

lol why am I not surprised. This whole area is full of toxic waste. I was honestly happy for my health when I moved my office from the first floor (which sits 4 feet below grade) at the Praxair site to the third floor. I didn’t like watching guys in tivec suits behind double barriers digging 20 feet from my office. :

wimp… Call me when you are advised not to dig under your lab…

[focusinprogress]

Also, as far as the Bass Pro location…Cabellas would be perfect…the problem is buffalo doesnt really have the means to support the types of hobbies a store like bass pro or cabellas caters to…they COULD, but won’t invest in it. think how cool it would be to have a mountain-biking park on the waterfront, maybe even some trails for 4-wheelers/dirtbikes/etc. in summer that serve the same purpose for snowmobiles in winter. they could make nice biking/hiking trails that you could cross-country ski or snowshoe down in winter…they are full of shit when they say there arent ways of utilizing the spaces in both seasons.

[Joe]

Wouldn’t things like leveling the steel plant and de-polluting the ground be exactly the type of stuff the stimulus was designed for? The unused stimulus money for construction projects the city and county are sitting on would be the perfect kickstart, depending on just how bad it is. Then once it was done, that would be grade A real estate that they could sell for top dollar.

[JayS]

@Joe

Wouldn’t things like leveling the steel plant and de-polluting the ground be exactly the type of stuff the stimulus was designed for? The unused stimulus money for construction projects the city and county are sitting on would be the perfect kickstart, depending on just how bad it is. Then once it was done, that would be grade A real estate that they could sell for top dollar.

Yep, it would seem like a great place for the fed to through some stimulus money. Unfortunately Erie County had to use the money they go so far just to fill in the massive budget holes they had.

[Carnut]

@JayS

I think a supermarket is a bad idea for an anchor store. Most people don’t do their grocery shopping on the same trip as their recreational shopping.

The way an anchor store works is it draws people in who then say, “if I have time I’ll check out some of the other stores while I’m there”. The problem with a grocery store is people will go there first since that was the reason for their trip and then not want to go anywhere else because they have a car full of perishables.

I agree downtown needs a big grocery store if you expect lots of people to live here but I don’t think it should be part of the harbor development, at least not as an anchor.

@Joe

They have a big sign up DT accepting donations to build Frank Lloyd Wright’s gas station as well. Wonder if it has pay at the pump.

And the grocery store would be another stage in the process. Step 1 would be getting people to visit down there, and like it enough to want to live there. Then that kind of thing could be filled in.

I would agree with you about the destination thing except for the tens of thousands of people that live in the vacinity and have very little choice when it comes to getting groceries. It’s part of the reason why poor people have such high rates of obesity, type II diabetes etc. Lack of grocery options. Couple that with the condos put up and the loft projects that have been and continue to be built down town. Investors are building because they see a future. A grocery store the caliber of Wegmans would actually serve the community pretty well I think.

[JayS]

Again, not saying downtown doesn’t need a Wegmans, just that it doesn’t work as an anchor store for this development. It doesn’t have the drawing power of a Bass Pro or Ikea.

[Carnut]

@JayS

Again, not saying downtown doesn’t need a Wegmans, just that it doesn’t work as an anchor store for this development. It doesn’t have the drawing power of a Bass Pro or Ikea.

I agree that it doesn’t have the drawing power of bass pro or Ikea, but if we create a viable living city we would be much more poised to attract other big business here. Bass pro and Ikea probably look at us as minor leagues and think “call us when you make it to the majors kid”.

A wegmans downtown whether on the waterfront or not would be good, but I think in terms of an area you want to attract people to all year, and given Wegmans history in the area, I think they are probably the best candidate.

[Jim1234664]

put a half sized wegmans on the aud site or on the waterfront, I dont care. Then make a great wolf lodge/splash lagoon indoor outdoor water park / hotel on the site right on the shore with huge windows on the lake side, even in the winter the view will make it a desirable spot. Recreate the canal terminus and some of the historic street grid and build only 2-3 story smalish buildings that are close together and mixed commercial ground floor / have offices or apartments on the upper floors(this can be done and filled in very slowly over the years as demand for the area grows.)

use whatever land is left over for a public park

[JDMSIR]

I was just at ikea sunday and it sucks driving there on the weekend, took an hour to get over the bridge. You can’t get your gst back anymore and the two wardrobes I want are $100 each more expensive then the ones in pittsburg. Wtf.

[Blue_Eyed_Devil]

The proj ruins any hope of a Wegmans. They would need a dozen armed security patrolling inside the store. They would also have to charge double for the food to pay for crime prevention.
Maybe the City of Buffalo could open a store and have Byron Brown III run it. (sorry couldn’t resist)

[Carnut]

lol!

[Joe]

Maybe Terry Tate is available.

[ProgRocker]

@Joe

Maybe Terry Tate is available.

“Last cup of joe? Make some mo’”

[Blue_Eyed_Devil]

Hey how about this… To start getting people to go down there with almost ZERO investment start a farmers market!!! This way if things don’t go well its not like Wegmans had to invest several million dollars to find out.
Its a win/win you get your food but no one has a huge investment!

[Fry]

I think step one is to abandon the idea of an “anchor.” Swing for the fences and you’ll usually strike out. Knock out singles and doubles consistently and you win championships and get into the hall of fame.

Shit doesn’t happen overnight. We’re not going to magically convince a store to come to a market that can’t support it. Stores go where they’re needed all by themselves. Even if we did we’d have to think of a way to defy economics so that a retail outlet brought money into an economy rather than funnel it out. :ham:

Even simple shit like the campground focusinprogress mentioned would be great. Get some people to spend time down there that aren’t section 8 hoodrats, then restaurants and small shops start popping up, someone sees a building that they could make into an office for cheap, then someone buys the campground and turns it into a golf course and banquet center, plus 1000 other variations of the same story all over the area. Voila a low budget campground bridged the gap between trash and treasure. Of course all of this hinges on the people of Buffalo having enough money to support it, so we need the politicians (gulp) to create an environment conducive to small business so that the blue eyed devils of the world come here to build businesses and create jobs and bring money in by actually “producing” stuff.

I hate to be a cynic, but the waterfront and the state of the entire area go hand-in-hand. There’s not going to be one giant fix. It’s going to be lots of little improvements. The good news is we already have world-class education here, and a low cost of living, which all added up to Forbes ranking Buffalo the 10th best city in the country to live.

[Blue_Eyed_Devil]

Waterfront brainstorm(that means no shooting down ideas)… GO!

IKEA
Wegmans
camping
farmer’s market
mini golf & go carts (snowmobiles in winter)
Gentleman’s club named “Brass pole” that looks like Bass Pro logo.

[evane]

Sort of funny that someone mentioned legalized pot earlier in the thread, Intuit had this gem on there blog…

http://blog.turbotax.intuit.com/taxes-101/how-much-could-the-government-make-off-pot/

[Joe]

Red light district. Legalized pot and hookers.