You know all to well I have intentionally not put any formulas in any of my posts. NOBODY likes math! :ponder
I have no beef with you. I actually looked up the infamous 30k intercooler and reaserched it. Its pretty bad-ass.
The key to that ic is calculus believe it or not. I’m sure it is the mathematical optimum of about 4 things.
The ratio of fin density to external airflow.
(the more external fins the more heat the IC can shed, but as the density of external fins grows the amount of air flowing over the IC is reduced, and therefore there is an optimum value of fin density. Hence the differential equations.)
The tube geometry (length / diameter as a function of turbulence.
(tube length and diameter is the dominant factor for pressure drop in an intercooler. Turbulators, even when there is a lot of them, contribute very little to pressure drop when compared to the tube length. This is why vertical flow IC’s have much less pressure drop than horizontal flow IC’s)
Thin materials.
(The thinner the tube wall, the faster heat can flow thru the tube and get to the external fins. this drives up production costs a LOT but not 30K.)
Turbulator design, and external fin design.
(optimizing turbulence optimizes heat transfer. Turbulent flow is very much a “new” science. im sure much of this is modeled numerically by computers and experimental data, as very few formulas exists for turbulent flows.)
math + nobody likes…got that right! At least on my ends of it
I too agree those heat exchangers are an ass-ton of money for what is offered. No doubt. The expensive variants are made of copper, with pros/cons vs aluminum(application specific of course) in weight and thermal conductivity properties of the metals.
You hit it on the head with all four points. Those HE’s do use super thin cross sectional material with high density fin counts amongst other trade secret shit they probably have under wraps. Like you stated previously, higher fin density = lower overal airflow throughout the core design; thinner material cross section aids in aliviating some of that while not sacrificing surface area require for the cores overal function. You know all the details in regards to that area of discussion so we won’t carry on about it
Just a visual reference of external fin count for those still trolling this thread.
Is it copper? it looks silver colored, i wonder what it is coated with… Does Secan have a website? I can’t seem to find it. Copper is the best non-precious metal for thermal conductivity.
You can have your intercooler coated with synthetic diamond, known as DLC “diamond like carbon”
Thermal conductivity of DLC is up to 700, and would cost you about 1000-1500 dollars.
Frankly I’m pretty sure I could MAKE my own intercooler out of copper, have it DLC coated, outperform the SECAN for less money.
Actually I may do that next semester for my capstone project. minus the DLC. Bolt that bitch in the GTI! LOL. I could test it in the schools wind tunnel under controlled conditions. Hmm… :rockon
The way copper costs these days you’d think it was precious :eek3
They make both aluminum and copper HE’s for many different applications. Mostly aircraft/aerospace shit, which is probably why they get away with charging six arms and two legs for the cores! Pic I posted was an aluminum core. They are a french aerospace company that’s a subsidiary of Honeywell. I hate french and took four years of the crap in college. Major fail in the translation department.
Most of the information I’ve gatherd on them is from a porschephile named Ralph who used to work at Andial back in the 90’s, and Steve Becker from Precise Machining(porsche engine specialist) who was the shop forman for Porsche Motorsports during the 962 group C era but remained a consultant for awhile thereafter into the late 90’s as well. Met both over the years in my travels and amongst the Porsche community works(Rennsport Reunion is where I met Ralph). He was the one who told me about their use on the 993 GT2 and 993/996 GT(GT1) chassis. If memory serves me correct, copper was used on the GT2 and aluminum on the GT1’s
You can buy the cores from RS tuning in europe, when such cores exist that don’t have a list of names attached to them.
DLC FTMFW. I swear that shit is going to be the replacement Nicasil for ultra performance engine bore plating in the future :number1
Wonder how well you’d be able to get the DLC deposition down onto the inner external fin structure of the core, being that the fins would have to be vacuum brazed into place prior to DLC application? Interesting Dr. Watson!
i did a pretty extensive fest of DLC cotings so I know a lot about them.
I think it can be done, with RF plasma deposition at a substrate temperature of only 150C. I am not sure though, I would have to talk to my contacts. I sure do know what company I would go with though, as one brand was WAY better than the others.
Ion beam deposition requires an exposed surface, so i don’t think you could do the inside surfaces with the ION beam.
I have tested the friction, wear, electrical conductivity, and hardness of DLC, as well as Raman spectography as well is FTIR (Fourier transform infrared spectography) as well as some more basic microscopic evaluation of surface cracking under overtemperture conditions.
IIRC, I think the company I was researching was something called Tekvac or soemthing like that. Had HCPIIP and PVD application processes, which I think would work for an engine bore(in theory in my head at least???). Essentially turn the cylinder itself into a vacuum chamber, as long as you could cap the bore on both ends perfectly. I guess the real trick with the HCPIIP application would be getting the cathode to be the cylinder wall. Anode(s) could just be the plugs.
Post up your flow bench data comparing the two to prove this.
Saying that your intercooler has 10% better flowing end tanks but is 80% less effective at exchanging heat is like saying you have a race car that always finishes last but has the nicest paint job.
Did you have a temp probe in your charge piping before and after your intercooler? How else are you measuring the effectiveness of it?
I have one after it, I compare it to ambient temps. :thumbup
as for flow bench, you get me the numbers for the T1 IC and I’ll run mine. I am curious though, are you saying that the inlet/outlet of the T1 looks like it flows well according to the simple physics that I assume most everyone knows?
A comparison of post IC temperature does not take into account the temperature of the air entering the inter cooler. Without an accurate measurement of the high temperature, your ambient to intercooled comparison is useless for comparing the efficiency of the two intercoolers.
You have no idea of the true Delta-T, the mass flow, or the pressure drop. Nor do you have any idea about the sustainability of that cooling over time. You also dont know the amount of air flowing over the core externally.
True you will know the final temperture, and that is important, but it is far from the whole story.
The T1 endtanks look perfectly acceptable to me. Only the slightest changes could be made, and the difference would be incredibly minimal. End tanks, unless they are completely retarded have a very minimal effect on the cooling.
how many people actually have all that data? be honest now.
I understand that the delta T would be great to know, but the real important number is the one I have. I have full logs of it on the dyno, at the drag strip, at autocross, at different boost levels and at different speeds. I think I have the important data.
