My only argument/question is where do we stop increasing penalties; that’s the question I started with and will end with. Where and how do we decide that the penalties are no longer having the desired effect to reduce the actions; or at what level do the penalties and the cost for those penalties outweigh the effect on society. (Prime example - “Drug war”; the punishments are now having a massively larger detrimental effect on society than the “crime”).
One in three people will be involved in an alcohol-related crash during their lifetime.
Car crashes are the leading cause of death for teens, and one out of three of those crashes is alcohol-related.
Car accidents due to drunk driving are a main cause of death for people from two to thirty-three years old.
Every day, an average of 1,440 injuries and 29 deaths occur because of drunk driving.
Clearly there is room for improvement 
At least we agree on something 
Not a great comparison honestly
The drug war is a good argument for NOT banning alcohol completely
If you want to have a debate about just drinking 23,000 women a year die from binge drinking.
Nobody is addicted to drinking and driving
Nobody is forced into situations where they have to drink and drive
there are several scourges in our society that are “100% preventable” but typically as a society we don’t condone the creation of laws that attempt to limit those risks to zero through ever expanding the definition of crime in the face of ever diminishing returns.
if impairment truly starts with the first drink then why shouldn’t illegality if that is the measure of all things in this matter.
Ok, can’t/won’t argue.
But what what is the % reduction in these statistics if we reduce the DWI to 0.05%?
What are the increases in cost/profit for police, lawyers, towns, counties, states, federal government, insurance companies, private prison systems, yours and my tax bill (seeing we fund the prison systems, police, towns, states, fed; not the criminals!)?
Then use those numbers to determine if this change is really about reducing those stats, or is being influenced by companies wanting to make a profit.
Maybe that .05% won’t run over someone in your family?
I’m not talking about trying to prevent mass shooting through some new law…
I’m also not suggesting locking up someone who steals a shirt from a store for life…
The point is a lot of people who get DWIs have careers, money, and other things worth losing and would take a hard look at their life choices if the punishment was increased.
I posted the stats on how many people die each year from people making an extremely bad choice when there are alternatives.
People seem to write off DWI as not that big of a deal because nobody died when they got caught or whatever justification. The stats show that lots of innocent people get killed each year.
If tomorrow ISPs, the government, and movie producers teamed up to actively prosecute people who download illegal movies and a few average people got convicted I guarantee you pirating would drop like a rock.
From a Punishment Vs effecting the public actions, it’s a great example. Punishment is MASSIVE for possession, just look at CA’s 3 strikes and you’re out policies. Lifetime in jail for getting caught 3 times with a bag of weed. You’re telling me that the punishment is REALLY having an effect on deterring those actions? If you do then I have some oceanfront property in AZ to sell you.
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And here is a perfect emotional driven response instead of a logic data driven response. :facepalm:
LZ have you thought about running for office? You would do great!
“alcohol related” includes all accidents that have any element of alcohol involved over 0.01% BAC… even if the DD with no alcohol in their blood mows down a group of pre-schoolers while transporting their shit face drunk friend home…it is considered an “alcohol related accident”
The 3 strikes law is used AGAINST CRIMINALS usually in the commission of violent/drug related crimes.
The 3 strikes law ONLY APPLIES TO FELONIES
I didn’t know having a bag of weed was a felony
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Here lets make this easy…
Are you ok with driving drunk?
Are you ok with the current punishment for driving drunk?
How would you lower the drunk driving rate? or is the current rate an acceptable loss?
i think it is a bit insincere to call it all “drunk driving” since that term comes with a bunch of emotional baggage and isn’t really accurate. maybe you should say “are you okay with someone driving with a BAC equal to or greater than XYZ%?”
How’s that to start?
key word… usually.
The majority of people in our prison system are due to mandatory drug sentences. Mandatory publicly known punishments for doing something. Yet we keep sending more and more people to prison for the same actions. Doesn’t seem like the punishment is having much of an effect on changing this behavior…
That is my point… once punishments hit a specific point, they will no longer effect how people in a society act. Once you get over that “peak point of effectiveness” you actually start falling down the other side and the punishments actually make the societal effects worse instead of better. There’s always going to be a % of a population who is going to do whatever they want in regards to a law, regardless of the consequences. Once you hit the point with punishments, you could make them more strict, but you’re not having any effect on reducing the action you’re trying to reduce, you’re just spending more $$ and having a more negative effect on that society.
bobby, do you feel like people are currently looking at the penalties and saying “that’s no so bad, I’ll take the risk”? If yes then a higher penalty might work, if no then how could it?
Ah so your issue is with the current science and understanding about BAC and its relation to impar your driving ability
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Then why are you arguing with me?
All I said was increase penalties :lol:
.05 is already a crime in NY
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Why are you arguing about the prison system?
I never mentioned what increased punishment I thought was effective.
The argument we are currently having is YOU think that increased punishment would give little returns and I believe increased punishment would show returns.
Because you said this law is a good start. It is not.
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I do feel like people think it isn’t a big deal. TBH, most people don’t even know what the penalties are because they are so caught up in life to actually think about it. I think it doesn’t hit somebody until they are sobered up after they got a DWI.
It’s ALREADY A CRIME IN NY at .05
I would be happy not letting people plea deal or anything a DWAI in NY.
The argument I have been having with 97formula is about if increasing punishment will actually produce a reduction in DWI or DWI deaths.
no my problem is with talking about the issue as if every “drunk driver” is about to kill grandma and a school bus full of children. the facts simply do not support that position.
if you want to make some activity illegal then make it illegal…don’t go making ridiculous overtures to emotional arguments that represent the very fringes of the behavior in question.
the fact is that the number of instances of driving over the legal limit that result in a serious accident or fatalities is vanishingly small compared to the number of times the behavior takes place. as demonstrated by your typical DWI recipient having driven “drunk” 80 times before getting caught.
don’t make it into a big moralistic-everyone-is-going-to-die argument because that simply isn’t true. continually adjusting the goal posts is going to have ever diminishing returns. at some point it isn’t worth moving the goal posts anymore.
Honestly I don’t know, and I don’t know the answer to the second one, I don’t have the data if I’m looking at it from a business/effective standpoint.
I’m not “dodging” answering anything, it’s just not a simple yes/no set of questions. There’s TONS of variables and things that need to be thought about outside of the direct effects/reactions.