Live Green, Go Yellow

[Zer0DazE]

@RobY

By the same logic pound for pound diesel fuel would make more power than gas. As diesel fuel has more energy density. Gasoline has higher energy density than ethanol but ethanol will allow an engine to run a higher compression/ more boost. Ethanol also burns more efficently because it is an oxygenated fuel.

I will find the burn charts for ethanol. Basicly the fuel being oxygenated means if you richen up the mix it continues to make more power. This is contrary to gasoline.

Given the same motor ADJUSTED to ethanol AFR’s an alcohol engine will make more power at the expesnse of burning more fuel. This is because of the oxygen content inherent in the fuel itself.

There is a thread on NASIOC on a WRX converted to run on E85. Running similar parameters tuned for an ethanol AFR it makes more power than gasoline.

Ill find that later…

so the money i will save buying a cheaper fuel i will spend because i need more of it?
i kid i kid.

i would like to see some comparisons. i understand whay you’re saying about increasing compression… but new cars are being made to run gas and/or e85. so you arent getting that increased compression, only decreased fuel mileage. at least for now.

edit: and for those that want to be “green” i posted how to do it in tech (it may be on ubrf, but i think it was here). i even posted how to make your own fuel. i was going to do it with the civic

edit 2:
because most of you are too lazy to search
http://www.nyspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2035&highlight=ethanol

[boardjnky4]

i think that e85 is gonna become real cheap tho if it starts being widely mass produced. right now there are only 600 e85 gas stations in the us. Thats not a lot at all, good luck finding one. Once its at every pump, it will be a lot cheaper then gasoline.

EDIT: not a single one in the northeast aside from PA. check it out

[somedude]

there was a discussion about this on taurus car club because the ffv taurus has been around for a long time and the general concensus was e85 was a lot cheaper that gas to buy (about half the price) but their milage dropped significantly from low to mid 20’s to 14-16mpg on e85 and it was emidiatly assumed that there was a power loss ecause the milage dropped so much but the drivers said it wan’t really noticeable and it didn’t bother them because even though they consumed more fuel it still worked out to be a little cheaper in most cases.

[boardjnky4]

could better tuning make them get better mileage?

[RobY]

I found the burn graphs for ethanol vs gasoline.

You definately will have to burn more ethanol to get the same energy density of gasoline but thats not disputed.

But rich burning ethanol produces power contrary to gasoline in which rich burns reduce power.

In almost any situation given the correct ratio for each fuel ethanol produces more Mean effective Cylnder Pressures upon combustion.

Here is a real life example of FFV’s.

http://www.popsci.com/popsci/aviationspace/e65b89c49db84010vgnvcm1000004eecbccdrcrd.html

[RobY]

@boardjnky4

could better tuning make them get better mileage?

No, thats because it requires a lower AFR for a efficent burn. The optimum AFR for a gasoline engine is around 14:1 The otimum AFR for an alcohol engine is somewhere around 8:1

[Zer0DazE]

i wonder if any of the older T5 saab ecus did both gas and e85, or if its only the new T7s.

[Blue_Eyed_Devil]

Reading this thread makes it sound so simple.:biglaugh:
We are only talking about major change to one of the largest and oldest industries in existence.
There is A LOT more to this than changing hemp laws.:smash2:

[boardjnky4]

well yeah, the thing i like tho, is that gm is working with the government to put up more e85 stations. IF the indusrty is gonna do a 180 and eventually swith to all e85, its gonna take a long time, prolly 10-15 years at the least. But its all about small steps. im sure that manufacturers are gonna be working on efficiency of these vehicles as well. if i had a couple million to invest i might build a plant and open up a few half gas/half e85 stations, would make a killing in the coming years i think

[Zer0DazE]

@boardjnky4

well yeah, the thing i like tho, is that gm is working with the government to put up more e85 stations. IF the indusrty is gonna do a 180 and eventually swith to all e85, its gonna take a long time, prolly 10-15 years at the least. But its all about small steps. im sure that manufacturers are gonna be working on efficiency of these vehicles as well. if i had a couple million to invest i might build a plant and open up a few half gas/half e85 stations, would make a killing in the coming years i think

people have been using ethanol for over 30 years to run cars. its going to take a little more than 10 or 15 years.

[boardjnky4]

but the gasoline situation is much worse now then it ever was. price of gas 30 years ago was fucking 20 cents a gallon, now its upwards of 3 dollars almost. People will back this idea heavily due to these reasons. If the cars got better gas mileage all companies would start emerging these vehicles. With companies like gm actually promoting these vehicles and pushing the idea it will progress very quickly.

[Zer0DazE]

@boardjnky4

but the gasoline situation is much worse now then it ever was. price of gas 30 years ago was fucking 20 cents a gallon, now its upwards of 3 dollars almost. People will back this idea heavily due to these reasons. If the cars got better gas mileage all companies would start emerging these vehicles. With companies like gm actually promoting these vehicles and pushing the idea it will progress very quickly.

you’re kidding right?

the gas crunch in the late 70’s was far worse than what we have right now.

[Blue_Eyed_Devil]

:word:

Don’t forget, this is The United States of Amnesia.

[Zer0DazE]

@AWDrifter

:word:

you’re an old man. tell him about it

back when you had to walk to school… uphill both ways.
you and xander.

[Blue_Eyed_Devil]

@Zer0DazE

you’re an old man. tell him about it

back when you had to walk to school… uphill both ways.
you and xander.

In snow!

[Zer0DazE]

@AWDrifter

In snow!

13 months a year

[StrokedZ28]

Read this article the other day. It makes sence to me.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/AUTOS/02/13/diesel/index.html

[Rx3]

@Zer0DazE

you’re an old man. tell him about it

back when you had to walk to school… uphill both ways.
you and xander.

@AWDrifter

In snow!

@Zer0DazE

13 months a year

With cardboard on your feet for shoes. :rant:

It would be interesting if the groundswell for this could pick up. A lot of things could change if this country is less dependent on foreign energy.

[Daddie]

@boardjnky4

but the gasoline situation is much worse now then it ever was. price of gas 30 years ago was fucking 20 cents a gallon, now its upwards of 3 dollars almost. People will back this idea heavily due to these reasons. If the cars got better gas mileage all companies would start emerging these vehicles. With companies like gm actually promoting these vehicles and pushing the idea it will progress very quickly.

Comparing the value of a dollar now to the value of a dollar back then, the price we pay for gas is nothing.

[Inn-Tune]

Janny just to clarify, it may cost 70 bucks for an auto manufacturer to produce future models which are E85 safe, but to convert an existing car would be very costly. 85% ethanol would eat seals in your fuel pump and regulator as well as eating any rubber fuel lines, etc. It would all have to be replaced.