So then the people who laid the rails for the trains should be on trial too? The people who built the trains? The people who molded the bolts? The guy who invented the bolt?
A military organization exists because of structure and governance. Everyone in the military gets their commands from somewhere, and the unfortunate thing with the Holocaust was that baseless immorality existed far up the command chain, leading to a system by which you could not question your orders without retribution. There were many accounts of people who worked at concentration camps who were not there by choice, many of them captured Jews themselves. They were forced to clean the gas chambers, dispose of bodies, round people up, etc. Are they too be put on trial as well?
Most low ranking officers are given commands without reason, and are expected to obey without question. That’s how any organization works. It’s very grey as to where the “blame” falls (ie, who should be put on trial), and you just can’t make a blanket statement that everyone who was at a concentration camp who wasn’t killed was an accomplice to murder.
It really depends on their conscious efforts. I’m not commenting on whether or not this guy is to blame, though. I just don’t think it’s right to compare the holocaust to any type of actual battle.
Completely playing devil’s advocate here, I don’t think its that far fetched to think Nazi SS officers would have “taken care of” an insubordinate solider that refused to follow orders. In WWII Russian officers regularly shot their own soldiers who disobeyed orders. The person has two options, forced to do something they know is wrong or be killed. How can it be fair they are prosecuted for those actions just trying to stay alive? It’s a catch 22 situation. I wonder how many of you (when forced to) would put a random person’s life over your own?
If everyone who had played in any part of the war was responsible (as someone mentioned above) wouldn’t they have had to put every single German and Italian solider in jail?
Disclaimer: I am in no way condoning the Holocaust. Or saying this particular guy fell into this exact circumstance.
I never meant to compare the severity of the Iraqi war with the Holocaust. I’m merely trying to analyze the organizational structure to get a better perspective on how I feel about this guy. It’s easy to say HE’S A NAZI, BURN HIM! and be done with it. I prefer to form educated opinions by looking at the overall influencing factors in a given situation. In this case, it’s the organizational idea of chain of command (more specifically, of militaristic chain of command, which, unlike MOST business, can result in death and thereby be more serious than just business decisions).
“I would go to military prison”… HAHA ! Not if you were a fucking Nazi… you’d be shot and so would your family.
The Russians were killing their own cowards too… If you chose not to fight, your commanding officer would kill you in front of everyone else to prove a point. Does that mean those officers need to be rounded up and put in jail as well?
Following orders is following orders. Not all of the Nazis were racist. Thats why some of the Jews got away. BUT - They all had to follow orders. If they didn’t, they were killed.
Military Prison… HAHAHA Like the Nazis had time for that.
C’mon, read the article, he wasn’t just some guard on duty, he was under the SS command. He basically choose to become one of them:
"Ukrainian-born Demjanjuk, a former Soviet Red Army soldier, is now accused of volunteering to serve as a guard under the SS after being taken prisoner by the Nazis in 1942.
According to the indictment, he served as a simple “wachmann,” or guard, under the SS. As such, he is the lowest-ranking person to go on trial for Nazi war crimes."
also
"Some of the most damning evidence comes from statements made by Ignat Danilchenko, a now-deceased Ukrainian who once served in the Soviet Army and was exiled to Siberia following World War II for helping the Nazis.
In 1979, he told the Soviet KGB that he served with Demjanjuk at Sobibor and that Demjanjuk “like all guards in the camp, participated in the mass killing of Jews.”’
There’s stuff mixed in for his defense in the article but you don’t serve alongside the SS and NOT participate.
To compare this to our trips in Iraq is tottaly off base, considering some Marines have already faced charges for storming some homes after they had rocket fire from them, and a case of mistaken identity.
Generally speaking, the US isn’t known for the massacre of civilians, dropping bombs in a friendly fire incident on our own guys is too common however.
Ukrainian-born Demjanjuk, a former Soviet Red Army soldier, is now accused of volunteering to serve as a guard under the SS after being taken prisoner by the Nazis in 1942.
and what you said is pretty much you wanting to make an argument, regardless if it has nothing to do with what i said. All of the positions i listed had direct involvement with the deaths of millions. Are you saying to me that the person who drove a train that had countless amounts of Jews packed into cattle cars behind it to death camps shouldn’t be held responsible?
NYspeed should take a field trip to the Holocaust Memorial Museum.
Accusation is not proof. And again, I’m not saying I know this guy is blameless. But I certainly am not going to condemn someone so easily.
What about the graphics design artist who created the anti-sematic propganda artwork? Are they to be held responsible?
What about the secretary who took telephone memos, and handled confidential notices, for one of the commanding officers? Are they to be held responsible?
What about the brick layer who physically pieced together the chambers where so many died? Are they to be held responsible?
The type of blanket judgement you are making (all or nothing) is kind of Nazi-ish in itself, which I find ironic.
If they were part of the SS, yes. There was only one reason you joined or were picked for it, you hated the Jews and anyone the Nazis wanted you to hate. There are Nazis, and Germans. There’s a line there somewhere.
yes. they helped directly in leading to the death of millions, and to conceal it from the world for as long as possible, making the death toll astronomically higher. Jesus, propaganda was one of the most important tools of the Nazis.
“Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it.” …know who said that?
What about the secretary who took telephone memos, and handled confidential notices, for one of the commanding officers? Are they to be held responsible?
Yes, if she was fully aware of what she was doing, then why shouldn’t she be? Isn’t that kind of like being an accessory to murder?
What about the brick layer who physically pieced together the chambers where so many died? Are they to be held responsible?
Seeing as how most of the camps were already military outposts prior to becoming death camps, i’d dare say that the chambers were built/designed by the personnel stationed there (high ranking officers, SS, soldiers, ect), or by prisoners being made to do so prior to being killed. So, yes.
The type of blanket judgement you are making (all or nothing) is kind of Nazi-ish in itself, which I find ironic.
Where is my all or nothing? I’m saying that if they had involvement, then they are guilty. My examples are NO WHERE near the examples that you’re creating to try and reference me with. Do I think the inventor of the fucking BOLT should be held responsible? no. The line draws itself, either you knew what was going on and you contributed, or you didn’t.
NOW ON THE EXCEPTION, there were indeed germans that had no idea that the concentration camps were actually death camps, but that was mainly civilians who were being blinded by the propaganda.
Do you actually know anything about Nazi Germany, their propaganda efforts, WWII, or anything else pertaining directly to this topic? You’re obviously entitled to your opinion, but i find it hard to believe that you are being this argumentative based on an educated opinion.
Clearly the Nuremberg Trials failed miserably. They should have convicted every single German solider and every German civilian who didn’t take down Nazi propaganda, or rise up and revolt against the Gestapo. Oh wait, all those civilians that tried any of that were shipped off to a camp or killed. Just like how Hitler put all those associated with plots to assassinate him in jail… oh wait no he didn’t, he had them all shot on the spot.
Some of you really need to pick up a history book and do some reading before spouting off that every one of these people had a choice. This wasn’t like working at McDonalds where if you don’t want to clean the toilets you can tell your boss to go fuck himself and quit and walk out the door. Things didn’t exactly work like that.
As a non-Jewish person once the area you were living in fell under Nazi control you did have a choice. You could fall in line behind Hitler and do as he said, or watch yourself and your family be killed for being Jewish sympathizers. That’s not really much of a choice. Those in command and holding those guns to people’s heads needed to be punished but that’s about as far as it should go.
I guess in a few more years it won’t be an issue because time will render judgment on everyone involved.