Ugh pharmaceutical sales

I go to the doctor to pick up some forms I had. I’m waiting in a line of 5-7 people at the front desk.

So I scope out the people waiting. I notice a lady dressed nicely, hair done, little 5 star notebook thing and a big black bag. I said how terrific–a modern day prostitute.

And so she gets in line behind me, huffling and puffling. I said, “oh, are you in a hurry?”

and she said, “I can get to a few other offices today if I’m lucky!”

and I replied, “Oh. I always had this question. If the drug is a huge breakthrough and in the best interest of the patients wouldn’t the doctor read about it in journals?”

… “Yes, but sometimes there are new, minor drugs…”

I left it at that because she wasn’t very bright. If she was smart and could think about ethics in any capacity she wouldn’t have chosen to become a pharmaceutical salesperson. I guess it’s like any other company. However, if somebody gets a bad deal on a car they are out money. If somebody takes a drug that was never scientifically proven to work (FDA is horrid regarding this), and then it doesn’t work for them then you’re dealing with their life. Terrific.

Ah, but all is okay if the people that control the government are getting money. :wink:

thats a real good job to have. You get to travel all over the place, and you earn big bucks.

Drug trade shows are everywhere.

this thread is worthless

Ahh ignorance… how wonderful.

How is selling pharmacueticals unethical?

They’re young yet…

And how does a pharmaceutical salesperson affect someone taking a non-proven drug (FDA or not)? Just about all the drugs pushed by P-sales have to be doctor prescribed. If your doctor doesn’t prescribe it, you can’t take it or acquire it (legally).

yeah, it’s not her fault

blame the doctor

and darwin

Ummm… so what are you saying in this post?

I sell pharmaceuticals, and there is a lot of validity to the job that I do. The doctors are soooo damn busy now, especially with all the managed care bullshit they have to go through, they hardly have time to see patients, let alone read journals about every drug on the market.

I think she gave you a straight answer, I don’t think that answer was that dumb.

I come in and let the doctor know of my product, why it works, how it works, and what types of patients it should be considered for, as well as all the safety concerns around it. I feel good about promoting products that can help people live a better quality of life.

And the FDA regulates the shit out of the products coming to market. They have to be studied extensively, with years of studies and data to back up what the company claims the drug to do. There is also extensive postmarketing surveillance that looks for other Adverse Effects that couldn’t be compiled in a the time it takes for the initial studies to be done. If anything is out of the ordinary, it is pulled until further tests can be done.

Even though the big Vioxx thing and the heart problems related to the drug, soo many people swear by it and wish it was on the market because it worked so well for those patients.

I’m not sure how advertising pharmaceuticals is unethical - inducements (which these days sounds like it includes a $10 paid-for lunch) are.

Now no physician in the world will be able to keep up on all the drugs available on the market today. The Physician’s Drug Reference is a small-print textbook that’s a phone book in size - imagine memorizing one of those each year.

Now my point is if you’re going to ban rep-sponsored sales, you should ban all advertising (including direct-to-consumer ones).

If you do that, expect a great slowdown in new drugs coming to market - the USDM for pharmaceuticals is the greatest source of R&D money for the drug companies. And remember - making a drug is cheap. Inventing/discovering/studying one isn’t.

+1

Sometimes it’s just not worth even trying to reason with people. Just give them a few years in the real world then try.

Ahh yes, ignorance…

Lets delve into this subject. It happens to be something I feel very passionately about.

First, why is it unethical? You have to understand that a drug salesperson does not have the best interests of the patient in mind. They care about themselves like any other person on the planet. However, their selfishness comes with drugs that are many times good, sometimes ineffective (Prozac) and infrequently dangerous (phen-fen, Vioxx). Of course, they believe that their actions are both ethical and useful. And why wouldn’t they? Generally sane people like to think they’re good people. Generally this means looking at the good and ignoring the bad, or passing it off as insignificant.

They have no means to argue, other than what they have been hand fed. Many of them have business degrees, and they don’t know what makes a study reliable or even valid. The FDA has proven to be largely ineffective at protecting American. Why?

In the recent past there was a need to increase the size of the FDA. Drugs were not being processed quickly enough. The money to fund the increase in size did not come from citizens; it came from the drug companies. And who do you think works at the FDA? Do you think they have ties with the drug companies? What about the government? Do drug companies impose on government like other companies? CDW owns a radioactive landfill in Ransomville, and they’re probably going to get legislation passed so that they can dump more there. It’s ignorant to think the same type of thing doesn’t happen in any other industry.

Prozac was passed along with some fanfare during the late 80s. Aha! Finally an antidepressant that didn’t have the repercussions of the MAOI’s. You could eat cheese with Prozac! There was no threat of tardive dyskensia! yay!

Ah. But is Prozac even a very effective antidepressant? The FDA’s findings are a resounding YES! But scoop…

The FDA’s study wasn’t valid. By valid I mean–it didn’t study how effective PROZAC was at treating depression. When Eli Lilly was preparing to introduce Prozac to the market, their findings were that it was not any more effective than the placebo.

This is hilarious, and when I read this 3 years ago I sat there in disbelief. They reused the subjects that were the other control in the study as the Prozac treatment group. This control group was receiving impramine, which was proven to be effective at treating depression. THIS ISN’T A VALID STUDY=THEY COULD NOT POSSIBLY PROVE THAT PROZAC WAS AFFECTING THE DEPRESSED STATE OF MIND. You can read a nice book by Dr. Braun. Its on page 22. It is actually a very good book, and it isn’t biased (unlike something by, say, Breggin, which goes off the other deep end and says that all psychiatric methods are basically crap–ouch, Dr. Breggin, you’re just as scary as the people you hate…). He does make a very good point–if depression were solely a “chemical imbalance” then how does the placebo work? Ah. Marketing. It’s very dangerous. Dr. William Glasser says the same thing.

If you want more proof that fluoxetine alone is not very effective, read some studies by Wagner.

Sigh. How does this make pharmaceutical sales unethical? Ignorance to what you’re selling is no excuse. They knew Vioxx was dangerous when they released it. They know that around half the time Prozac is ineffective when not combined with therapy. I believe it jumps to around 70% effective when combined with therapy, but I’m not sure, and I’m not digging through my shelf of journal articles. Ignorance to knowledge is never an excuse, and I’m very happy that Walter brought it up. :wink:

Pharmaceutical salespeople were targeting medical students. Some schools still allow it. No I do not know why. Actually, I do know why. Money. Money is the culprit to this whole problem. They target medical students because they want to make them feel indebted to the company. Reciprocity drives more exchanges in the real world than anybody wants to think, and I dare somebody to go a day without encountering it themselves. The problem is that it can create doctors that are less likely to speak out when something is wrong.

If this isn’t achieved, the alternative is feeling entitled to the treatment. This is bad for the pharmaceutical industry because they are basically taking advantage of them, but it’s also bad for the patient because this is unethical in its own right. This is a summary of an article I read in the Australian Journal of Medicine, I believe.

I’ve spent the past 5 years researching the pharmaceutical industry. I have come across many good things and many bad things. I wish they held themselves to a higher standard than other industries, but they do not. It’s my personal mission to make people aware that they are not in the business of losing money, and many times doctors are not able to see their own missteps because they are receiving special treatment. It’s an industry run amuck, and the FDA is not doing its job anymore.

I’m also scared that as much as I’ve tried to find good information on the long-term effects of SSRI’s, I haven’t been able to. The best information I have found is, “No one has anything but the vaguest idea of the chemical effects of these drug on the living human brain”-Glenmullen.

:slight_smile:

My best guess is that you invest and make money off of this industry, no?

that whore makes 80k + a year

Well, it’s no question that frequently a doctor cannot find anything “wrong” with their patient. However, saying this would make them look inadequate. So I guess having drugs that are perceptual cures, harmless, but ineffective at eliciting any action, are useful. That’s a problem with the healthcare industry in general, however.

Yes, and she should be making $40k.

I don’t even get into it with them. For the reason I stated in the first paragraph. They are not able to view it like the normal, everyday person. When your company is giving you money to feed your kids, you generally don’t view it in the same light. You want to believe they are impeccable, but that’s simply not the case. You play by a very different set of rules when you are dealing with people’s bodies and not their money. Unfortunately even if the pharmaceutical rep were more inquisitive they wouldn’t know where to begin. They’re not any more educated than most people. Otherwise they wouldn’t be a pharmaceutical rep because there is a ton more money to be found in the industry elsewhere.

Agh. But this thread is a perfect example of how certain people believe that they should play by the same rules as any other industry. As long as they’re making money and making me money…who cares. :hang: Live by the sword, die by the sword.

Wow, how profound. Its my mission to find a company who is all about losing money…oh wait.

So you’ve mentioned a handful of drugs that have been found to cause problems with their users.
How may drugs are on the market right now? Thousands of name brand and probably even more generic. Unless you mean to tell me that every single one of those drugs has ill effects to a person, then I fail to see how drug reps or their employers are unethical. They have a job to do. They sell the products their company produces. Do you really think that a company says “Let’s manufacture a drug that we claim does one thing, but then let it totally screw up the person taking it other ways.”? That’s a pretty poor business practice even for the big bad drug companies. If their products were so ineffective, these companies would cease to exist.

I know you like to get caught up in your, big business is bad, and wanting to fight “the man” or whatever, but the simple fact is, I take the studies and research of highly trained and skilled scientists over a 20 something kid with 5 years of “research” under his belt.
I’m sure you and Michael Moore will have plenty to talk about when his new documentary comes out.
I’m not trying to be a dick, but it seems that this arguement has some holes.

Hit IGNORE, it makes coreys threads much more tolerable

I never said I was in to fighting all big business. Now you’re putting words into my mouth.

That’s the entire problem here. People taking the “word” of people. I don’t expect anybody to believe me, because I’m not at all reputable. However, just because somebody has a PhD from Sally’s School of Song and Dance doesn’t mean they’re going to waltz on to the dance floor and wow you with their exuberant performance. In fact, I’ve read a lot of PhD dissertations that have been utterly CRAP.

I’m actually mad that Michael Moore is putting out a new movie, because it’s not going to portray the industry in a fair manner. It’s going to turn people in the opposite direction of being informed. They’re just going to shut it out. Agh. How is HE even qualified to examine ANYTHING?

Also, my points are very valid. Just because I only listed a few drugs does not mean they’re insignificant. These are people’s lives you are dealing with. I’m sure you wouldn’t say that about your own. “Oh, it was just ONE drug in THOUSANDS. It hardly matters.”

I guess I should clarify:

I would like people to be conscientious of the industry. I think people do a bit too much listening and not enough questioning at the doctors office. Sometimes what is economical for the doctor and the insurance company is not in the best interest of the patient. :slight_smile: