How many local events did WNY run in 2004? It just seemed like there were more local events. Maybe it’s my memory going in my old age. When there are local events every two weeks or so I think it’s easier to keep people’s interest.
The hardcore autocrossers always talk about the lack of competition at Dunnville because there is no official timing. That might be the case if there was only one car on the track at a time, but when you’re chasing someone down turn after turn, or watching someone trying to chase you down in your rear view mirror, that’s competition. I don’t need an LCD display showing me thousandths of a second to tell me I was faster than the guy who had to wave me by, or that I was slower than the guy I had to wave by. I know I would specifically wait for certain people I found myself running close with to go out so we could chase each other around.
As for road tire, I’d like to hear what more FLR people have to say about it. Jim’s comment about “if you’re serious about winning step up and buy the right tires” is definitely the wrong attitude to have when your numbers are dwindling and you’re looking to increase participation. I know Jim’s a great guy who would help anyone, but a novice who might not know him is going to see something like that and wonder. I’ve always found it one of the dumbest things the SCCA does by allowing race tires in stock classes, but banning them in all the street touring and street prepared classes. The people spending money on the mods for the prepared classes are the people much more likely to buy race tires while the ones in the bone stock classes seem much more like the “race it on Sunday, drive it to work on Monday” crowd SCCA tries to market autocrossing toward.
Way to go SCCA. :bloated: There’s a lot of people talking about cost vs seat time so this is an area that needs more consideration. If ECC is cheaper than Seneca maybe charge less for ECC and more for Seneca. How about looking for other revenue streams? Concessions are big money maker but FSAE has always been there in recent years to feed us cheap so that’s a tough relationship to change. Just throwing things out there to maybe get others thinking.
It’s not just gas because the slide started before gas prices shot up. I can see gas prices being an issue for the 230 mile trip to Seneca, but for WNYers going to ECC I don’t buy it. You’re talking about no farther than most people drive every day for work, and gas at the event is nothing. Even my pig of a car with it’s big V8 doesn’t use enough gas autocrossing to make a dent in a tank.
I guess I can understand how heats can cause problems…but I also think faster repeat runs help a lot to add fun/excitment, especially with novice drivers like myself. I love how we did 3 runs in the morn and 4 in the afternoon yesterday…but even if we just had 2 runs in a row it would help. Having ~45 min breaks between individual runs is the biggest downfall of AutoX for me personally…more than gas prices or sites. I tend to forget key/tricky parts of the course in that time for the first 2-3 runs. The ability to get back out there quicker, while the course is still fresh in your head helps me make better use of the seat time…and makes it a lot more fun when you don’t miss gates or slow down/lift-throttle-oversteer to look for the next cones
Hell, coming from North Buffalo, I’d rather go to SEAD all the time than ECCN
BTW, FWIW, I did attend the Novice School but I missed the first 2 real events. I missed the first event because I’d rather go turkey hunting in early May. I missed the 2nd because of the crappy weather…I’m just not that hardcore yet. Both of these beyond the organizers control.
Yeah, the weather for event 2 was just awful. I only stayed for one three run heat and I saw an awful lot of people packing up and leaving the same time I did.
Hopefully if you get a local even with some nice weather the attendance will bounce back a bit.
drag racing is cheaper and its 12minutes from my house…
seriously though, i dont feel like making a baffled oil pan/windage tray to wallow around a parking lot in a k car. i can starve the pickup easily on the street if i want to.
I used to autox alot in college in PGH but the biggest reason i was there was to hang out with friends. most of my closer friends drag race alot more than autox.
We used to have NCCC, BIMP, and if you go back a few more years ECCS, Delphi, UB… Our sites keep dwindling, but we are trying to make the best of what we’ve got.
I agree with Dave on this one. I don’t want lap times so that I can say “I’m going faster than you” - I want lap times so that I can say “I’m doing it right this time.” Someone can sit next to you and tell you that you are doing it right, but that’s subjective. You can feel like you are doing it right, but that’s not always the case. The numbers don’t lie. Plus, the speed doesn’t do anything for me.
For me, the only way a Road Tire class is worthwhile is if we restrict it to a higher treadwear tire than ST classes, ie 300+. That way, everyone is on crappy all-seasons or snows, and it would actually be useful, instead of a couple of guys on Azenis and destroying everyone. That is the spirit of a Road Tire class.
Not what I meant. I mean number of events, not sites. It just seemed like there used to be autocross events local every two weeks or so, 12-13 events I thought. And the official OOR’s were an hour away, not 2+.
To each his own, but the track days have gone from one UBRF day a year to something like 7 or more Onyx Syndicate dates, with NYSpeed people talking about Watkins, Mosport and BeaveRun, so track days are catching on, even despite their farther distance and higher cost.
Ok, so why not? It’s a regional thing right, so why couldn’t you say 300+ treadwear in your street tire class? You can get a pretty decent 300 treadware tire. The Kumho’s I’m running on the GTO are summer only 300’s and they’re surprisingly sticky while wearing well on the street/highway. Unlike my old 200’s the car will spin through first gear on perfect pavement, but nothing like it would just roast the OE performance all seasons through first.
We have 11 events this season, and the first OOR was at RIT. In the past we have done one OOR at LES, which is also far away, but no one ever went. We seem to get better participation at SEAD. Plus, FLR has lost Valeo and MCC, so that contributes to the OORs being at SEAD.
Autox is the most accessible of any motorsports. The flip side of that is that since it doesn’t take much to get into it, it doesn’t take as much of a commitment either - thus any number of small things can keep people away.
WNY uses the bump class now, and used to use the PRO class concept, while FLR uses the Road Tire class. The basic motivation is the same, to create competition for those that don’t want to invest in sticky tires. IMHO, the Road Tire class serves a little better as a transition out of Novice until people decide to stick around or move on.
I would take a look at not just the total number of entrants, but also the breakdown of those entrants. You have to attract a lot of Novices in order to grab a bunch to make it to their second year. Out of the second year group, you’re lucky to hang on to a couple that will continue to compete, move up, and maybe become part of your core group. If you break that cycle at any point, you risk taking a growth hit in the long run.
I’m not sure why, especially with the solid number of really good drivers in WNY, but FLR seems to be a little more oriented to the season championship. As a result, there are a few of the core group that will do more events that are working on a title.
Personal opinion here… 6-8 runs is not an attraction for me, especially if it comes at the price of having a event that is all run/work with no down time to socialize. I would rather either get done earlier, or if it’s an event at SeAD (more transit time), then I’d rather take a break for lunch, change up the course (or design it to be run backwards), and have a separate competition in the afternoon.
Finally, even SeAD may start to get “old” as there are lots of events run there. It seems like all of the regions in the western part of the state (including Albany) are running events there, so it isn’t quite the same appeal that it was when it was only used a few times a year.
not enough seat time for duration at event, i know its the nature of auto-x but for me i liked the longer courses , a lot of downtime between runs
Price wasnt too bad but for bit more like others said we can goto Dunnville…
Not to sounds like a dick…Too early for me to get up on a Sunday…I like driving a lot and I had fun there, but somewhere I lost my motivation to spend my sunday taht way
I don’t really understand the people that claim “But for just a little more you can run at Dunnville.”
To run at dunville, you have an hour+ drive, multiple toll sections, complete tune-up, extra tires, new pads, etc.
Sure you get more seat time, but it’s probably at a much more substantial cost than driving ten minutes to ECCN.
You learn a shitload about the limits of your car and yourself as a driver at auto-x. If anything, I suspect it’s a great precursor to doing “track days”
Furthermore, track days aren’t timed. They aren’t HPDEs. Sure you may “feel it” when someone is baring down on you, but if that person is in a race prepped STI and you are in a shitty GTI, well maybe there is more to it than you are realizing. If you are overtaking a neon on the back straight when you are driving a 400whp rx7 or 600whp supra, how is that more exhilarating than beating down on grandpa’s CTS on the 290?
Don’t misunderstand me, any kind of racing is great and it’s helping rebuild this community… it’s just a shame the numbers are dwindling.
The weather was shittier the couple times i stopped in, cold/wind.
If its windy in amherst its doubly windy at ECC.
While I don’t run and have only once, all I heard was people griping about the weather. That’s out of your control.
If I were running, I think I would get bored of the same old. Same locations, same layouts etc, same wierdo cooking food… point being, variety is the spice of life and keeps people interested beyond the aspect of competition and beating on your car.
I also think there needs to be an event like NCCC again which incorporates more high speed sections… if you want to call it that.
I do agree with the crowd having less discretionary income and choosing between their options.
Truth. I strongly believe you’ll learn more about the limits and characteristics of your car auto-xing.
I’ve done both. I love both. However, I feel they are two completely different animals. Auto-x is super technical, you’ll learn a ton. The track days are a ton of seat time (which is not the same as auto-x seat time as far as learning goes). No timing on the track does suck. It’s still fun by all means but I’d like to know when I’m getting faster and slower by changing lines/techniques/car setup.
To me the track is a nice relaxing day. Auto-x is short, but completely intense.
I’ll rant more later, need sleep now.
edit: Now wheel to wheel track racing is a different story. That > all.
you have to be there too damn early. I get 2 days a week to sleep in. I’m not waking up at 8 on one of them to tech my car and sit around. If they had an event that started at noon or so and lasted til later on, like 7 or so, i’d be much more interested.
Now that I traded the GTO for the TBSS, i’d be a lot more competitive in a straight line.
While I haven’t auto-x’ed at all in the last 2 years, I really do miss it, and will hopefully be at it again soon. I work a lot of w/e’s though, and I just don’t have the time that I did when in college. Give me some time, I’ll try and make it out soon.
Whoever remembers me knows I was a regular at local Auto-X events in 2002 and 2003. When I moved downstate post-grad, I continued to compete, but I haven’t done an Auto-X since 2005 I believe.
I love auto-x, and I feel bad I haven’t been attending, hearing how low attendance has dropped. I learned a lot competing, and I still recommend auto-x to friends and family interested in competitive driving or improving their skills. It is still the cheapest and easiest way to explore the limits of your car and your limits as a driver, in a controlled and monitored environment.
For my part, besides being busier and lazier on the weekends, i’m in the same boat as a lot of people. I save my weekend time and money for a handful of track events a summer. It requires a little more car prep on my part, and more planning. But in a single event I get more seat time than I would in an entire season of autocross. When you only have so much time, an entire day spent for maybe 10 minutes of driving starts to be difficult to justify. I spend 5x as long changing my wheels over to race rubber for an autocross as I do actually driving the car!
A lot of the points have been touched on, so I don’t need to repeat them.
I will comment on a few things:
The SCCA shot themselves in the foot with this membership initiative and the raising of prices. If you are trying to attract new people and retain current people that participate in your sport, you don’t “force” them to buy your membership or increase your prices. Why they did this I am not sure, but you can’t sell me the “it’s the insurance costs” line as the sole reason. I understand that insurance companies are the biggest scam in America today and that they were going to make things difficult for motorsports in general, but to me the SCCA dropped the ball on getting a handle on how they were going to insure their events. This whole membership “drive” for numbers above all else just seems really fishy to me. If you have something that the people want, they will come to you. You won’t have to force them to be members. Maybe this wasn’t their intention, but the current policy has the feeling of being “forced” into becoming an SCCA member, and that will drive a lot of people away.
Another point: IMHO, auto-x seemed to be designed to get people interested in motorsports. That may not be the case now, with all the Pro Solo events, National Competitions, sponsorships etc. going on now. However if you really think about it, the original intention seemed to be: provide an entry INTO motorsports, and give them tools to MOVE UP. So in auto-x, the costs are supposed to be low, while giving you an opportunity to develop some skills. Once you start getting comfortable, your competitive desire should push you to the next level. The TRACK. Let’s be honest, the SCCA really wants more CLUB racers. SOLO II is supposed to be for fun and learning, but with all the pro-solo and other things, the fun factor for those new to motorsports is being lost because new participants feel they need to spend a ton of $$$$$$ on tires and who knows what else to be competitive. I think the original version was to keep costs down and learning up in Solo II, and then let the competitive burning of your wallet happen when you progressed to the club or pro racing of your choice. That isn’t happening. You’ve got a lot of club racing series dying out or weakening because their is no substantial influx of new talent and ambition. A lot of people are staying in the SOLO II ranks and competing there instead. I’ve seen some of the cars in the SCCA magazines and at some of the events. For the money these people spend, they could easily have a club race car with money left over and go club racing at the track.
Since SOLO II is supposed to be about attracting new people to motorsports, the prices need to be kept low and the fun factor high. This is obviously not happening, and that is why you are losing participation in auto-x. Gas prices, economy, etc. aren’t doing you any favors either but this decline was going to happen regardless.
There are other forms of motorsports vying for the same entry level crowd. The SCCA has now priced themselves out of the value bracket, and now they must compete with the others persuing the same demographic.
Another big point is the “seat time” argument.
People learn in different ways. Some people can learn with only a few tries. Some people need constant repetition that isn’t spaced out.
Autocross can be stressful because of the lack of tries to master the course and the clock. You’re so worried about the clock that you spend more time concentrating on it and less time concentrating on feedback from the car and hitting your marks. Some people learn better when the clock is off and there is less stress to get it right in as few tries as possible.
This is where the notion by a lot of people clamoring for “clocks” and “competition” is proven to be bullshit. You can’t compete if you are not capable, and confident. You need to find rhythm and confidence before you can compete. Having the clock with no competence is worthless, because all the clock will show is how shitty you are. Not having the clock at some trackdays allows you to concentrate on more important things like your technique, lines, and visualization. You need to get the basics down first. The fast lap times will come once you have the confidence and rythm.
You don’t need a clock in beginning stages of development to improve. I’m sure anyone that has autocrossed has had that one moment where everything fell into place. You are feeling the car, and the feedback it’s giving; you’re hitting your marks… and you know in the back of your head you are saying, “yeah, this is it! This run is gonna be GOOD!” You didn’t even need the clock to tell you that you were about to improve. Same thing goes for the track. Confidence first. Competition after.
Autocross may very well be a good place to learn, but the lack of seat time and the SPACE between time in the seat as well as the actual amount of seat time can be a problem. As people figure themselves out, they will gravitate to the fashion of learning that they feel suits them. That means auto-x will lose some people to environments that can provide more concentrated seat time.
I have to disagree. You can learn the limits of your car equally through auto-x or trackdays. The difference is auto-x is a more controlled environment in terms of overall speeds and being able to change configurations to simulate conditions. It may be easier for most to learn the limits in auto-x as opposed to being at the track because of this. But it is false to say that someone doing trackdays won’t learn the exact same thing and be as competent as the autocrosser.
This is a slightly misleading statement. If you are implying that auto-x is more intense than regular track days, then you are doing something wrong.
They are equally intense, and I’d say the track stuff is more intense simply because unlike auto-x, the speeds cannot be as controlled strictly. There is a lot more potential for speed, danger, and risk when at the track (depending on the event) and those three things together will amplify intensity.
Now maybe your thing is “relaxing” at the track, and you’re only driving at 5/10ths or 6/10ths of your ability and enjoying your car. Nothing wrong with that, it’s cool. Do what you like. But don’t pass that off as the track being less intense. Also intensity will vary for different people. What I may think is intense in terms of speed or difficulty may be boring for a hotshoe like you.
Travel to Dunville is exactly 1 hour, assuming you don’t get held up at the border and take the direct route.
If you take the scenic route (i.e. Rt 3), then yes, you are looking at 1hr 15minutes, maybe more if you are stuck behind a slow moving RV or 18-wheeler.
So if you mean to say hour “plus” like it’s way past an hour, that really isn’t the case no matter which route you take.
Multiple tolls?! You pay one toll if you are coming from Buffalo: The Peace Bridge entering Canada.
How is this any different than when you autocross? When you autocross, you want your car in proper working condition. You have to change pads and tires as necessary. Many people in Autocross have “extra tires” so this is nothing out of the ordinary. You don’t NEED extra tires per se to particpate in track days or auto-x.
It is a bigger cost, but definitely not substantial, at least for Dunville. When you start going to the bigger tracks like WGI, Beave Run, etc. then maybe you can argue “substantial” cost, but then it’s up to the participant. If seat time is what they want, the cost may be worth it for that person.
Good discussion though.
I could post why I don’t compete in auto-x anymore, but most people know already and I don’t think it matters much in the big picture. Long story short, it wasn’t as fun as it used to be. I renewed my membership for two years even after I wasn’t competing but I decided to finally let it lapse because I had no intention of running a full season. Even though I was considering a few events this year here and there just for fun or to keep certain skills in practice, the new cost to play per day without membership has made it not worth the time or the money.
i can starve the pickup easily on the street if i want to.
