Camaro V6 vs. Mustang V6 (wintertime internet racing)

NYSpeed Automotive
1

Not to be taken seriously, but, if you could pick one for road racing, which one, and why? Keep in mind aftermarket support, being able to achieve proposed weight.

Since the addition of the ITR class both of these fine handling machines are eligible. That means both can wear 17 X 8.5 (up to) wheels, throw in a LSD,mild power mods, intake, headers back exhaust, shocks/springs/coilovers, NO TRICK SUSPENION PARTS (i.e. adjustable a-arms, trailing links, ect)

[edit] this means NO FORCED INDUCTION, no aftermarket cams, no cam gears, stock TB, stock injectors, stock intake mani, some egr can be removed, FACTORY rebuild allowed (i.e., rebuild overbore per facotry service manual is allowed), compression can be raisd .5, tuning mods within stock ecu box (no piggyback), no cats, exhaust exit behind driver[/edit]

The biggest thing is no one thinks that the proposed weight is achievable with legal gutting (must keep dash, heater core, HVAC controls, rear glass, windshield), can lose all seats, carpet, trim, door glass and mechanism, A/C

So the players…

1997-1999 Camaro/Firebird 3.8l V6
200 hp @ 5200
225 ft-lb @ 4000
curb weight: 3331
race weight: 2815 (w/ driver)
Brakes: 302mm (f), 307mm ®

1998-2002 Mustang 3.8l V6
190 hp @ 5250
215 ft-lb @ 3000
curb weight: 3069
race weight: 2670 (w/ driver)
Brakes: 276mm (f), 266mm ®

2

are you contemplating a new vehicle?

3

Tough call. Both have pretty good aftermarket support.

At first glance I would say go for the lightweight car, but if the engine mods you speak of come into play, which car gets more power? What kind of wheelbase, and what size tires can each car fit on the biggest wheel allowed?

4

[quote=“Willybeen,post:2,topic:39257"”]

are you contemplating a new vehicle?

[/quote]

No, not looking at all.

I am sure the torque would be fun and all, but there are soooooooooooooooooo… many other cars for ITR.

Just trying to start a “discussion”.

5

[quote=“Rx3,post:3,topic:39257"”]

At first glance I would say go for the lightweight car, but if the engine mods you speak of come into play, which car gets more power? What kind of wheelbase, and what size tires can each car fit on the biggest wheel allowed?

[/quote]

What are typical 1/4 mile times for I/H/E + “chip/tune”, they run what mid 15s stock, so mid 14s with mods?

Both are ~101" wheelbase (101.1 and 101.3)

6

my mom had a 2002 monte carlo ss… same power plant, but obviously fwd. and my sister had a 2001 v6 mustang.

id def say the monte carlo was faster… and assuming the v6 camaro suspension is the same style as the v8 camaros, i’d say the camaro is your better bet.

then again, my sister got rid of the mustang years ago, so its been a while since ive driven it. same goes for the monte carlo.

so pretty much ignore what i said

7

well this is a very tough call. I know that getting the bird down to that weight isn’t going to be easy at all. The race weight includes a cage also, correct? Trying to lose 515 lbs vs 400 lbs is almost a no brainer there. Some of the drag fbods who DO remove the dash and run lightweight windows are only down to 27-2800 race weight. This also includes the use of dinky 3.5 inch wide wheels in front and lightweight aluminum wheels out back. So as far as weight category i’d pick the Mustang.

I have driven both vehicles and for turning purposes i enjoyed the mustang as compared to the bird. Bird was very sloppy and boat like. Seating position isn’t the greatest either in the firebird. The mustang felt more planted to the ground and although it felt like i was sitting on a piece of plywood being able to see the front of the vehicle some helped. The after market support for the mustang would be better for this type of thing. Although the ability to use shocks/struts springs for the bird allows you to use strano’s recipe for turning. He seems to be doing damned good with his setup. now granted his is an LS1, i still believe it would work out. My firebird is lowered 2 inches and it feels way better than stock. If i am not mistaken the Mustang tends to oversteer while the Fbod has issues with pushing (understeer) you may not experience this though considering you could set it up properly.

Motor- i’d have to go with the firebird on this one. N/a 3.8’s are beasts. Rwd version does not have the intake problems posed on the fwd versions. i owned my 3.8 for roughly 80k. motor had about 145k on it and it then developed a slight knock on start-up. I had the 3.8 mustang for just over a year only problem i had with that was slight coolant leak. The bird never lost to the v6 stang.

I don’t think i can honestly pick a clear cut winner without actually driving both back to back. I mean i love Fbods and all but the weight of the stang makes me want to pick that.

8

id say the Mustang. big aftermarket, lots of factory support in the means of Ford Racing Performance Parts, and its real easy to find a Thunderbird Supercoupe and put the top end and blower of that on there and make some good power.

9

[quote=“MikeRi24,post:8,topic:39257"”]

and its real easy to find a Thunderbird Supercoupe and put the top end and blower of that on there and make some good power.

[/quote]

WTF!!!

dude, seriously, where did I mention that forced induction is allowed?

updated original post since intake & header wasn’t descriptive enough.

10

:picard: Where did Mustang v.s Camaro turn into Thunderbird?

11

My basic thoughts through the narrow corridor that is my brain:

Basing it purely on the numbers, and excluding any other variables the weight may be a good advantage for the mustang, but the extra 145lbs. Versus the overall larger brakes, and better powerband on the Camaro would seem to negate the effect.

Namely that the Camaro would be able to brake later and more consistantly, and while it might not be able to get into it as early the better powerband should easily make up for the difference.

Ford 3.8’s in stock form provide little response to I/H/E mods, due poor flowing heads. Not sure on the GM 3.8, in terms of durablity assuming ford took care of the head gasket issues that plagued early 3.8s it would probably be as solid as the GM 3.8. But the Ford 3.8 drops off much earlier in power might be useful if you accidently drop it lower into the powerband. Overall the Gm 3.8 is hands down the better motor.

The Camaro is a bit larger overall due to overhang, could make it a bit harder to fit into small openings. Both cars have their strengths, but I would probably go with the Camaro. Both cars have decent aftermarket support, not familiar enough with handling to know which is the better of the two but popular internet knowledge favors the Camaro.

12

I don’t know anything about the power and weight of the two but I do know that the mustang’s suspension is generally considered ‘bad’, I haven’t driven either.

The f bod uses wishbones in the front versus struts on the mustang. Struts have camber issues and the geometry gets all whacky when they are lowered too much.

The mustang rear suspension relies on soft bushings to function. The fbod has better geomoetry with the torque arm/panhard setup.

13

Depends on who’s better at cheating. :slight_smile: Hard to beat the light weight, but if you can’t make the power you need to keep up, it doesn’t matter.

14

c’mon more internet racing…

15

whats your take on this?

16

i’d pick the mustang, just for the fact that it doesn’t have the 10 ft long dash that the fbody does. the fbod interior always felt “big and clunky” to me whenever i sat in one, so i’d think i’d be better suited driving the mustang. but what do i know :slight_smile:

17

i would find a new game.

3rd gen camaro or fox box mustang in their respective weak v8s 305/302 making not much more power then what you have in the more updated V6 but much better platforms for what you are proposing.

18

[quote=“psychopjv,post:15,topic:39257"”]

whats your take on this?

[/quote]

Before starting this thread I’ve heard arguements for both. They both have a developed racing program, as both of them with a carbed 302/305 run in American Sedan. There they run @ 3280 lbs.

Purely on opinion I think the Camaro would be the better choice just on power plant alone. Still waiting for someone to post I/H/E 1/4 mile times for both cars. I don’t think that the cars can reach race weight and in any case will have about ~300lb difference with the same amount of gutting.

Now, if I were going to do it, I’d pick the Mustang, based purely on cost. IIRC, I read back in the day that Mustangs out sold the Camaro/Firebird 2:1 combined. So it should be cheaper to find replacement pieces as needed. Also it is lighter and more feasible to achieve the proposed race weight (at least lighter than the f-bod), and be slightly easier on parts and tires.

Then again, if I did it, it would only be for “fun”, and not competitive at all. I’d probably just run 255/xx 16s on stock rims. Where as to win 315++/xx 17s on the lightest rims would be needed.

Alas if I wouldn’t do it to be competitive I’d be wasting my time, a stock 1991 Sentra SE-R out accelerates a stock 2001 V6 Mustang. Cheaping out on handling means it would be out cornered as well. Moving up 2 classes to have a slower car would be a bad move.

Racing on the internet, however, is free.

[quote=“2TurboZ,post:17,topic:39257"”]

i would find a new game.

3rd gen camaro or fox box mustang in their respective weak v8s 305/302 making not much more power then what you have in the more updated V6 but much better platforms for what you are proposing.

[/quote]

Except they already have that class, American Sedan, and at 3280 lbs they are rolling roadblocks through corners, only to out accelerate in the straights and repeat. Thus I said ITR not AS, 3.8l V6 not 5.0l V8, specified the later year of the 4th gens not 3rd gens. The loss of weight should help it out in the twisties? Besides a modern fuel delivery system should be more attractive, especially for the mechanically inept.

19

i know a few of the v6 guys were touching on 13’s with full exhaust/LSD/ ported/polished TB/port matched intakes for the camaro/firebird category. i am not positive on the Mustangs as the only v6 guy i know runs low 11’s with FI.

20

[quote=“MikeRi24,post:8,topic:39257"”]

id say the Mustang. big aftermarket, lots of factory support in the means of Ford Racing Performance Parts, and its real easy to find a Thunderbird Supercoupe and put the top end and blower of that on there and make some good power.

[/quote]

actually, thats far from the truth. Back in my SC days, this was discussed over and over again @ SCCoA and the ultimate feeling of 99.9% of the enthusiasts is that it’s a waste of time and $$$.

By the time you converted everything over, you’d still have an unstable bottom end and the aftermarket for the 3.8LSC (ford) engines are next to non-existent. For the manufacturers that did make parts, they were very costly.

I think it was back in 99-00’ish when a member finally broke into the 11’s and that was with a ton of $$$ into the car. There just wasn’t enough aftermarket to justify the setup