Getting around the "structures too close" rules?

NYSpeed Automotive NYSpeed Off Topic
1

I have a carport, which is basically the size of a 3-car garage, and it’s absolutely falling apart. They basically threw it together with leftover materials, it’s atrocious. It is about 2’ away from my small barn, parallel. The barn was built in ‘85 and there probably weren’t regulations. I was all set to demolish that fucker and have a nice 4-car wide garage built, until I realized it has to be 10’ away as per North Collins code. 10’ away would be impossible. The building inspector wasn’t much help. Basically, my options are:
-Build onto the barn. Problems are: the barn side isn’t nearly wide enough, and even if it was, the structures would still have to be separate, as I plan on having an enclosed dry garage with a concrete floor, and no openings to let the “critters” in. The barn is none of these things. I’d basically be adding onto the roof but still keeping them separate inside. A lot of work and money just to satisfy insurance companies.
-Build it elsewhere. Possible, but the only spot I could put it, would mean it would be a pain to pull cars in (I plan on parking my daily drivers in there and parking in there in the winter), and I’d have to re-route my (stone) driveway.
-The “one wall” plan. I’ve been told people do this in areas like the waterfront where they’re not allowed to demolish a house, so they leave one wall up (25% of the structure?) and build from there. Well, all of my walls suck, and the whole thing needs to be leveled anyway. But maybe it’s still possible?

My other question is, what constitutes a “separate” structure? I noticed a big 3-car garage recently built in Hamburg, right next to a carport that is part of the house. They have this dinky little awning joining the 2, which looks stupid/useless, but I’m wondering if they did that for a good reason. Any help would be appreciated- I’m seriously worried about this thing falling on my cars this winter. Last year the roof sagged down a few inches with the snow on it.:tdown: The roof leaks on my convertible. The workshop floods so bad there is a waterline on the few things I leave in there. I really need to do something next year.

Only pic I have of it (Don- it’s your Civic!)

[ATTACH=CONFIG]19477[/ATTACH]

2

I would think that you could use the one wall plan in 2 steps. First, get a permit to remodel the garage and use it to replace a wall, then later get another remodel permit to knock down all the shit left over and build out from said new wall.

Just a thought.

3

i know from the insurance side of this, it would count as an unattached structure even if it had something like a fence, awning, etc connecting them together.

4

I’d just build on to it if ya can.
Leave the one wall standing, build up the other walls…
Then once everything is braced well, knock down the wall that you left up and finish.

It actually looks pretty decent though…
But I guess not in person :stuck_out_tongue:

5

I heart my civic!

6

Thanks. It’s bad. That picture makes me realize how bad the roof has sagged since it was taken spring of 2010. They added on to that workshop on the left at some point, and just threw it together in a way I can’t begin to describe. It’s really bad in person in every respect- crooked, leaning, sunken in, plywood walls…

7

Ok, this is going to be a long-winded response so bear with me…

as far as the “one wall” plan, that only works if you still can acheive the 10’ separation that North Collins/NYS building code requires. In ANY new construction, you are not allowed to create a non-conformity to the code, even if all you are doing is rebuilding something that is already there.

for your “build onto the barn” option…In order for you to acheive all the things you want while adding onto the barn, to create separate structures as far as building code is concerned…all you need is a FIRE WALL. A fire wall by definition simply creates two separate “occupancies” (buildings) within one continuous structure. For this, you would have to have a set of construction documents with a detailed section of the composition of the firewall and make sure your local municipality will approve it and give you the permit.

Other things you can try…if this POS building is a desirable size and in a good location for you on your property, I would attack it like this without explaining to the code department your intentions and spread these steps out over time.

-get a permit to “repair” the floor…have a concrete guy come in and do a proper reinforced concrete pad in there with trench footers 48" below grade around the perimeter of where the carport roofline is.

-wait a little while, then get a permit to “enclose the structure”…this avoids the ‘creating a non conformity with new construction’ issue because you are not creating a new structure (as far as they know, becuase this will come in later). All they think you are doing is adding walls to an already existing building. I can’t tell if its a 3-wall structure with an open front, but if it is you might have to say that the walls are rotted and need to be repaired/replaced rather than saying you want to enclose the structure.

-once you have taken advantage of adding fresh walls over a proper concrete floor and footer (assuming you align the top plate/ridge of the sagging roof in the process), the last step is to get a permit to remove and replace the roof. By the time you have done this, the entire building has been replaced in the same location as the old shitty one. but by breaking it up into steps, the code department will be none the wiser and it will have been assumed to be the same building, just “repaired”.

thats my $.02 (I’m mid-training for NYS building code enforcement)

if you have any more questions, or need me to quote the code book verbatum on any of this, Shoot me a PM

your other option is to hopefully have someone in the trade agree to knock this thing down and put up a new building over ONE weekend, saturday to sunday…code enforcement officials do not work on these days, and if your neighbors dont blow you in, the WORST that can happen is once it is done you get yelled at, and have to go to a hearing about it where they deliberate on whether or not to grant you a variance to break the code with your building (which they will basically be forced to do because it’s already built)

even my training course teacher says "it’s easier to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission, especially in code enforcement)

8

Lol, I was going to post the “knock it down and rebuild in a weekend” thing.
I also was wondering if the property is visible from the road or not.

I am strongly in favor of permits honestly… I gutted my entire house without using any permits… Now it’s time to install the wood stove (applying for permit monday).
I’m shitting myself hoping the inspector won’t want to see all the electric and such, since it’s already drywalled/finished over. Or want to see the windows if he assumes that I reframed for them (which I had to)
Since the permit is for wood stove only, I’m hoping he won’t even bother looking at anything else, or maybe he’ll send the fire dept to come and take a look instead of him.

My insurance company doesn’t require any inspection of any sort… Just wants to know if I have one in use or not and if it’s primary heat source. But I figure if I install it without a permit and it starts the house on fire… I’m screwed :expressionless:

So I’m def in favor of doing things the legit way now. :stuck_out_tongue:

9

I’d cross my fingers, say prayers, and ask Tom Cruise to work his voodoo magic Scientology powers in your favor…

It’s going to depend on how your township/municipality is organized, sometimes there is only one guy that does ALL of the permits, building inspections, and fire code compliance… If they notice new work and find no records of permits on file, you can bet your ass they are going to want you to open up a few spots in the walls to view the work…you’d get a fine for doing the work without permit as well as being charged the permit fees post-rated and incur the expense of opening up the walls where they need to see and repairing afterwards. Just be really nice to the guy, try to focus all attention on the stove and it’s location, and thank him for his help/time. the more polite you are the better your chance of getting away with it.

You are correct though, for the cost of a permit it’s well worth avoiding possible headaches later on…so long as the permit process doesnt totally prevent you from doing something that makes perfect sence to do.

10

Yeah, I was going to try to be as nice as I could… maybe as honest, I don’t know. :expressionless:
I even thought about just waiting until I’ve got paint on the walls, move furniture in, and make it not look so obvious.
as it is right now, floor is down to the subfloor, drywall has a slight bit of finish work left to do… So it’s a bit more obvious that work was done :d

I guess we’ll see how it goes.

11

Wow, thanks a ton, that really clears things up. As for walls, it’s really only walled in on the left side, which was the existing structure that was added onto. The other “walls” are just plywood on 2X4s, and one consisted of faux wood paneling sheets that warped and fell down last year. I don’t think they bought much lumber at all, they just used what they had or found. The workshop is a hilarious mix of random wood scraps, old windows, even a cabinet door to fill in a hole. When I moved in they had a wood floor in there, which was so rotted it had to be picked up with a shovel and I filled up dozens of garbage bags with a rotted wood/dirt/garbage mix. Did I mention it was full of 50 years worth of junk?

From the sound of it, the only way it could work would be to build in stages like you said, but even that may not be possible. I could keep the same dimensions, but just bring the right side out. However, I was out today with a level trying to figure out which of the 2 structures is crooked/not level. Seeing that from the road drives me nuts. I think it’s actually the barn that is tilted towards the carport! It’s in great shape, just wasn’t built level, or in sank down. So building a level structure in the same spot would end with things still looking crooked. Fuck. So I may have to go with plan B and build it elsewhere. The spot I figured would work is high and dry and it’s mostly stone with grass over it. They used to park a motorhome and a dually there.

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o182/SeansParts/001dw3.jpg
001dw3.jpg1000×750

This is the view from the back. It’s bad.

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o182/SeansParts/dw2.jpg
dw2.jpg1000×750

The spot where I may be able to do it, looking away from the carport. The ruts in the lawn would be where the driveway would have to go so I could pull in easily. The house is right to the left.

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o182/SeansParts/dw.jpg
dw.jpg1000×750

Home ownership sucks. I was happier living in a crappy apartment. My dad had the best idea of the day- buy a piece of property out here, build a huge garage with living quarters up top, and add on/build a house later. If only I could go back in time and do that from the start.

12

that carport looks TERRIBLE. none of it would pass code, therefore what actually might happen if you tried to fix it a bit at a time is if you did the concrete first, the inspector MIGHT be forced to cite you for the roof structure being unsafe so you’d be back at square one. Is it insured? lol.

13

Lol that truss design looks solid man. Just fix up some loose ends and she’ll be good for another 50.

Why is the pic you just posted, and the first one so different? lol.
The color looks different, that might just be the lighting… But that sun looking metal thing is gone, the door looks to be different…
The fan in the winda is white in the bottom, then a nasty ass rust color in the first…

14

The truss design looks mediocre at best, and the header beams aren’t sitting properly on their posts (posts are way undersized as it is for the heavy timber they seem to have used for the header beams anyway), and there is a peice of the header beam to the right of that las picture that has rotted so bad it’s lost a peice of itself and isnt resting on the post.

15

I threw a coat of paint on it last fall hoping to eek a few more years out of it, because it was yellow and peeling. Those doors were inside doors and the veneer was peeling off. The roof is far from the worst part, but it’s strength doesn’t mean anything when everything holding it up is crap. The gutter was hanging off because the wood behind it was rotted away, and I just rigged it up to hopefully last until spring to keep the standing water to a minimum. I can’t wait to level this thing and burn it all.

16

first off…nice vw it deserves to be closed up in the winter.

i would not suggest going with the slow rebuild option as it will be pretty damn difficult to keep it all working and not just create a worse code situation to deal with. I also highly doubt what you are doing would ever appear to look like ‘repairs’ as defined by the existing building code…you would end up in a higher level alteration would would force you to have a compliant structure at the end based on the scope of changes proposed…some code officials can be fooled, but usually not that badly.

now where exactly is the 10’ separation coming from? is that a north collins specific regulation or are they pulling that out of the NYSBC? because based on the building code you could consider the 2 structures on the same lot…although physically separate…as a single ‘structure’ so long as its use and area do not exceed the maximum height and area values in the code… presumably either structure-barn or garage- could be called group U and as long as they aren’t more than 5500sf combined you shouldn’t have to worry about if they are separate.

17

As focusinprogress said, I’d need a firewall. Between that, the extra work to tap into the barn roof, and the fact that it couldn’t be as large as I want is making it too tough. That and the fact that I just realized the barn is not level, which would make a level garage/addition appear crooked (very visible from the road) has pretty much cemented it getting built elsewhere. Thanks though. I have a painted wood cover for the front that I put up for the winter to keep the snow off the cars. The Beetle at least has a concrete pad, but both of them being in such a moist environment is not a good thing at all. If I couldn’t have a garage built, I’d be selling them both next year.

18

Pics of VW in car port :smiley:

19

double post

20

just to be clear- you think the barn+garage floor areas together will equal over 5500sf? Because if they aren’t, then you can build a separate structure un-attached to the barn but within 10’ that wouldn’t require any kind of special construction such as a fire wall. That is of course so long as that 10’ regulation isn’t some wonky local ordinance or something.

the NYSBC is quite clear that 2 separate structures can inhabit the same lot and require no fire rated construction between them so long as their combined area does not exceed the area limitations for the use and type of construction, in this case type V construction group U use.