I pose a question for you *physics gooroos come in*

Actually ths statement is wrong. We had a specific descussion about the difference between friction coeff. and the area to which that coeff is applied.

the coeff. of static friction is independant, of area. YET, the total static friction IS a function of area as well as the coeff. think of the coeff as a multiplier.

A good example of this is lets say you have a tire of compound X and say its a 195 section width. Now you have that same compound in a 335 section width. The grip power of the coumpoud of rubber is the same in both tires, YET which do you think has more mechanical grip??

I’m fairly confident that frictional coefficient is dependent on area, among other things. Don’t confuse frictional coefficient with frictional force.

the coeff. of static friction is independant, of area. YET, the total static friction IS a function of area as well as the coeff.

So…
Friction Force = (Normal Force) x (Coefficient of Friction)
You’re stating that as area increases frictional force increases (which I agree with) while coefficient of friction remains the same. I disagree with this because that would mean that normal force would be the increasing variable.

If you have a greater contact patch size we both agree that Friction Force increases, so the other side of the equation increases as well. Normal force (i.e. the car’s weight) remains the same, so coefficient of friction must increase.

but whats the trap speed?

Vf^2=Vi^2+2as
Vf=sqrt(0+27.8402.336)
Vf=79.2m/s = 177.1 mph

see… 10.1@177 doesn’t add up on an AWD car… so my HP/track calculator must be wrong.

Well, that’s just theory assuming that the car is accelerating at the limit of traction the whole length of the track (hence the high trap speed.) I don’t know what a realistic coefficient of friction is for car so I’m guessing that the 0.8 is rather low so it takes the car a while to get going (hence only running a 10) but by staying at the limit of traction the whole time manages to get the car moving pretty quickly by the end of the track (hence the high trap speed.)

Your calculator is probably more accurate for real world conditions where the car can launch very hard but is soon limited by engine power rather than traction.

:lol:

:word:

I was just teasing… but now I have some :snky: formulas so I can magazine race.

lol alright

/physics guru (before I get that for a title)

in the .25 mile wouldnt you have drag there? at least the speed that the car…

do i have to get the slid rule out… i will break it out!!!

lol yeah there’s drag, but it’s a simple problem so it’s being neglected. haha noooooooo not the slide rule!

It’s been a LOOOONG time since I took physics, so I won’t even try to contribute except to say that TF dragsters hit a momentary peak of something on the order of 8G’s just after they launch. Average acceleration is ~4G’s for the entire run. http://digivex.com/jetski/boat/nhra2004/tidbits.htm

There are several issues that must be considered when choosing a dragster tire. Friction is surface-area independent in only a few ideal examples. The real world is more complicated. Especially for tires that are made of rubber. You want to choose a width, height, and tire compound that gives the best friction for the duration of the race. Top fuel dragsters have one-speed transmissions and slip the clutch during the run. In engineering it is commonly thought that the friction force is proportional to the force pushing the two surfaces together.

This is only correct over a certain range of conditions and materials. The constant of proportionality is called the “coefficient of friction.” The coefficient of friction depends on the material and condition of BOTH of the surfaces being rubbed together. It is small for Teflon rubbing on Teflon, larger for Teflon rubbing on wood, much larger for wood rubbing on smooth concrete and very high for wood rubbing on rough concrete.

However, if the surface becomes actually sticky, then conventional ‘friction’ theory simply does not work. It is possible to have large friction forces in the absence of a force pushing the two surfaces together. In fact, because the surfaces stick together when you try to pull them apart, a negative static friction coefficient is possible. I made a phone call to a company that makes dragster tires and their racing expert (Les Garbicz) provided me with some information. For most dragsters, certainly top fuel, the tires and track are sticky like scotch tape or flypaper. The tires may be inflated to only 7 psi and are fairly large. Thus, the contact area between tire and track can be a couple of square feet. (Each tire is 17 inches wide and the contact length is as much as 10 inches front-to-back). This enables acceleration to be up to five times that of gravity. The contact area decreases as the speed goes up.

The flypaper analogy is a useful image to illustrate the stickiness mechanism. However, the tire is not a flat surface sticking to a flat track surface. It is a rotating ellipsoid-shaped surface being compressed onto a flat unmovable surface. These ‘flypaper’ boundaries are localized on the surface and are made and broken as the tire rotates through the footprint. The rubber compounds that are used have the property that friction is low when cool. (Not really low, just lower than when hot). The friction increases with increasing temperature, even including the temperature when the rubber starts to melt. During a burnout, there is some melting of the surface, but the tires do not actually get runny and slippery. Prior to the race, the driver does a “burnout.” This short burnout liquifies a thin layer on the surface of the tire. This only makes the tire tacky and cleans the surface. This clean tacky surface grips the track very well.

A wing is attached to top fuel dragsters that produces a downward force. The downward force can be as much as 8000 pounds on a 2000 pound machine when traveling 300 mph. Thus tire slip is not a problem at high speeds. Centripetal force at high speeds keeps the tire from being squashed by the downward force of the wing. Increasing tire diameter and tire width increases the contact area. But there is a limit - a very large tire would not be well matched to the engine or axle *the torque becomes impracticable. When slip occurs between tire and track, the slip is not like a normal automobile tire where the tire slides on the road. Race tracks that are a quarter of a mile long are built of concrete and asphalt. The first 330 feet or so is concrete. The rest is asphalt. A new fresh track has a liquid rubber primer sprayed onto it which then dries. It is then mechanically abraded by a tractor pulling old tires across it. A second coat of primer is sprayed on. The result is sticky. During the races, more sticky rubber is transferred to the track. This, as well as the sticky nature of the rubber, accounts for the tremendous friction. Rubber is made into a useful tire by the process of curing at the factory. At a temperature much above 400F the rubber reverts to its uncured state, and becomes almost liquid. Obviously, the tire will fall apart if the body of the tire becomes that hot. If a dragster tire is abused or under inflated, the internal temperature can get very hot during the race, and racers make sure not to do that. The internal temperature is different from the surface temperature. When the racer does a ‘burnout’ prior to the beginning of the race, this liquifies a thin layer on the surface of the tire for good traction. The inside stays cool, and the clean, tacky surface is ready to race.

Aside from the friction issue is the “abrasion” factor. If the load is too high, the tire surface starts to form shavings instead of smoothly getting tacky. The shavings act like little bearings. Thus friction plummets. The rate of this friction drop seems to be related to the “recipe” of the compound, also is related to its hardness (modulus). A softer compound may become “greasy” on the track, leaving thick black lines on the surface while slightly harder compound may abrade into shavings with tearing. Fracture lines across the tread surface is called “graining” by engineers. These effects describe and explain the sliding coefficient of friction zone identified with high tire slip.

To make sticky surfaces adhere, you need to push them together. That is why you push down on sticky tape. Thus, there is a controversy about what happens when the leading edge of the dragster tire slams down onto the strip as the tire rotates. It has been argued that this ‘push’ downwards causes the tire to grip much better than if it were gently rolling along. Overall this is why tires need to be wide: a tire that is too narrow will abrade (which is bad) instead of getting tacky (which is good).

Bob Erck

Very interesting. I had a long discussion on a long car ride with my future (step) father-in-law about friction. He’s VP of American Brass right now, but started his career as an engineer and it doesn’t take long after you meet him to realize that that’s what’s in his blood. He’s very intelligent and knowledgeable so we got into a technical discussion of surface area vs friction force. He was arguing that theoretically contact area doesn’t matter. He know’s his engineering like nobody I’ve ever met so I have a feeling he was right, but it flies in the face of my intuition, as we all know that wide tires make more friction. The above post gets into that, but I am going to have to do a little research to fully understand who’s right and what’s wrong with my theory that frictional coefficients are dependent on area, among other things. I know that by this point there are very few people still interested in this thread, but for the sake of accuracy I wanted to fess up that my theory may not be accurate and may only hold true on a basic kinematics level…

Where’s Dr Gasparini when you really need him. Haha I still remember I got a 107% on one of his exams back in Spring 2001…

When slip occurs between tire and track, the slip is not like a normal automobile tire where the tire slides on the road.

I agree with 99% of what was said on this thread. I really agree with the above statement. I have spent many nights at the track helping rebuild my friends dragster because he overpowered a third of the way down the track only to loose traction and overrev the engine. Result:blown motor. He’s just to anxious. Real easy to loose traction with a dragster. Just watch it on TV…
My 2 cents anyway…:shrug: not a physics guru.

good article

centripetal force adjusts the contact patch of the tire at low/high speeds but also keeps it from being crushed from 8000 lbs of downforce. i like that.

I was watching dragracing on Speed a while ago and someone punctured a tire halfway down the track sending the rubber over 100 feet straight up into the air, coming down long after the car ran through the finish still at ~8 seconds. It was something to see…