Meatheads talking about eachother's meat and increasing the size of their meat. MEAT.

1st of all, citing an article from a site designed to sell supplements isn’t the most solid foundation from which to build an argument. Secondly, the University of Texas study did not look at arginine supplementation or NO production at all. The researchers merely demonstrated that the transit of amino acids from blood through interstitial fluid could play a major role in controlling the rate of muscle amino acid uptake. They measured the transport rates of phenylalanine, leucine, lysine, and alanine. Nowhere in the study did they test NO precursors on gains in strength or lean mass.

Also a link directly off that shows that users that have taken no2 have seen greater results.

“The obvious conclusion reached is that nitric oxide supplementation does prove effective for eliciting gains in lean body mass”
This was an rinky-dink in-house experiment (with 3 subjects per treatment arm, lol) designed to sell Pinnacle NOX2. This was not a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial published in a reputable journal. It’s sort of like a student project that’s grossly underpowered (in the statistical sense) & uncontrolled. Again, this article you cite was posted on a site designed to sell supps. It wasn’t even a legit scientific design; it was a quasi-experiment, but at least they admitted it. Let me quote the article: “It should be noted, however, that this is NOT in meant to be a strict scientific study, as the term science is meant.”

But for something like no2 it can go back and forth… link is supplied below
Is NO2 The Real Deal?
All this article does is talk about possible mechanisms of how NO precursors might have clinical applications. There’s nothing in there that’s compelling enough for bodybuilding or fitness goals. But more than that, he cites no direct evidence of its effectiveness for the said pursuits.

As for the claims on CEE, when was that article written? The website I noticed was created in 2007… I was taken CEE at the end of 06, beginning of 07. If there was research done BEFORE that, I was unaware, but if the research came after that, then there was nothing there to support your claims, so I ask, could you really blame someone for taking CEE? Now that I’ve read studies pertaining to CEE, if I ever get back into a regular workout routine I’ll have to try a different route.
Can you blame people for being victims of marketing, and jumping the gun despite a lack of evidence of effectiveness? Can you blame the lay public for not having the skills to sniff out the bullshit from the truth? I guess not.

Let me quote one of the references in Layne’s article:

“Under normal conditions sufficient arginine is produced
endogenously to enable the exogenous ingestion of a
mixture of essential amino acids (excluding arginine) to effectively
stimulate muscle protein synthesis. In a recent study, a
balanced mixture of all the amino acids in the same proportions
as they appear in muscle protein was given to normal
volunteers and muscle protein synthesis was determined by
means of tracer methodology and arteriovenous sampling (23).
The exact protocol was then repeated in the same subjects,
except that only the essential amino acids (EAAs) were given
(leucine, isoleucine, valine, methionine, lysine, phenylalanine,
threonine, histadine). The amount of amino-N deleted
from the mixture as a result of dropping the nonessential
amino acids (NEAAs) was not made up by changing the
amount of the essential amino acids given. Deletion of all
nonessential amino acids, including arginine, did not diminish
the anabolic response to the EAAs (23). Thus, under normal
conditions arginine ingestion is not necessary for the stimulation
of muscle protein synthesis by ingestion of EAAs. Conversely,
ingestion of all the NEAAs that were deleted in this
experiment, including arginine, had no effect on muscle protein
synthesis.”

Bottom line: are you willing to make the same mistake on NO precursors that you made on buying CEE? Don’t get me wrong, I’m sure your NO products are working fine via the power of expectation bias (placebo effect).

Appeals to authority are a weak basis for debate. I’ve debated with Layne to the point where he had to concede that he couldn’t prove his assertion about the given issue. Does this mean that you should take my words on faith because I’ve made Layne concede? No. It’s about the research data, not the article author.

I almost understood 1/2 the words you just said Alan lol. Good info though man!

Like I said before, you’ll spend less in the long run working with Alan then you would spend on bogus suppliments, AND you will reach your goals quicker then listening to random people that have ‘educated’ themselves on exercise and sports nutrition off of the internet. Like I said before, if someone went to BB.com and ordered everything that the site said they NEEDED, their bill would be approacing on what they would spend on a program designed by Alan.

Have you even remotely attempted to learn anything on your own? Or do you just spit out what Alan preaches? I’ve yet to hear anything about what you’ve read, learned, or tried on your own. You throw this guys name around like you’ve known him for a decade plus.

Do you even know why you do the things you do? Or do you just do what you’re told to do without actually understanding it?

Ha, after getting OWNED by Alan you just try to slam me however you can-I understand.

And to answer your question, between working full time in a different city then my hometown, and running a part time business building/maintaining some of the areas fastest forced induction vehicles, I simply don’t have the time, or want to make the time to study about nutrition. I simply did my homework, found the most respected name in the business, worked with him, and made a great friend in the process.

So yeah, I spit out what the best preaches to me. Before I worked with Alan, I was in the same boat as you-learning BS off of bodybuilding.com. I know what works and does not work…leaving the science behind it to Alan is fine with me.

On the friendly tip…are you from Johnstown? If so I’m curious if you know this chick I was banging out there…

EDIT-fuck friendly at this point…see next posts.

I didnt see this post until now, but i’ll mark it as the official one where you started the name calling. ‘Kids a fruitcake’ LOL. Dude, you thought you knew some shit about nutrition, but you got fucking OWNED and can’t admit it.

deadbeat, you have no reason to apologize to me. Check out post 127 though…and I’m sure Alan would be fine answering any questions/concerns that you may have.

LOL

The fruitcake stuff was lame, but fruity…

Alan obviously knows his shit, and must know you well enough to be cool and come on a forum sign up and post a bunch of info that took a while to type up…

Cliff is obviously not an idiot, but I think he did get pwnt and doesnt wanna admit it, but thats ok

I dont think there is anything wrong with travis leaving the technical shit up to Alan. The dude is obviously in the business of nutrition for a reason and he seems to be very good at it based on how hes talking about it…

All in all,

Deadbeatrec got pwned so hard hes not even posting anymore… good

Cliff… got owned wont admit it…

Travis should of seen the fruitcake shit way earlier :smiley:

yea i have been gone… it was a holiday asshat!

and my thoughts on PWO still stands. Dextrose has a lot higher GI value than Breads and when u are done lifting, that insulin spike is a good thing to fight being catabolic.

BCAA’s pre and post WO are also key. i take them during as well to stay as anabolic as i can.

and just so u all know, anyone can have anyone register on here and post anything they want u to hear. should i have some of my past trainers join and post a whole bunch of shit supporting my statements?

u want some real good info, join ironaddits or doggcrap forums.

im not saying this Alan dude is wrong but again i would like to see where i was owned. he thinks my PWO sugar is unnecessary but i can post article upon article that its not. fact of the matter is there is so much crap out there about anything, its easy to veer off track.

eat big and train hard and u will see results.

/thread

this is supporting Alans posts

but i have also found dozen others supporting mine.

so confused, i am!

ALAN, please post your typical pre and post W/O formulas.

" Complex carbohydrates are always best, except, again, after a workout where you could take simple (sugar) carbohydrates to get an insulin spike. But at other times doing this is not very beneficial because insulin is a storage hormone and it’s going to shunt everything into the muscle."

Dorian Yates

interview if u want to read it for yourself

"In fact, a large post-workout serving of simple carbohydrates puts your muscles into a favorable anabolic state. This means that the body’s extra insulin release, when timed correctly, promotes muscle mass. A post-workout increase in plasma insulin levels sensitizes your muscle cells and increases nutrient uptake and storage, creating an optimal anabolic environment primed for rapid muscle gains.

To maximize muscle growth, be sure to take advantage of your muscles’ post-workout hypersensitivity to insulin and amino acid uptake. An optimal way to do this is by combining a large quantity of high-glycemic carbohydrates along with a fast-absorbing protein blend containing whey protein concentrates of di-, tri- and oligo-peptides. The oncoming spike will cause your pancreas to release insulin, which hypersensitizes your muscle cells for maximum post-workout nutrient absorption, including amino acids from protein. "

more yet!!!

If you have a diet that is LOW GI all day and all night, the use of post WO carbs is highly beneficial. It will not contribute to insulin insensitivity.
Besides, these articles are very black and white, the use of heavy PW carbs only tweaks the dial more or less on insulin sensitivity. If you have a good diet of low GI stuff most of the time, the PW malto or dex will always benefit more than hurt.
There are like 9 dimensions here and each article seems to talk about 1 as if its YES or NO.

BTW most of the studies quoted on insulin sensitivity are usually done on NORMAL individuals, non lifting non adapted non-dieting subjects.

Will one of you fruitcakes make me dinner with all this nutrition knowledge?

do you put out?

Well yeah, I’m the man in the equation.