Both sides of the argument here.
[ame]http://youtu.be/t27ie4qFlXM[/ame]
:dunno
I’m all for it, that being said there needs to be some regulation about it.
Let’s be real,it does not matter what ANYONE says or who’s in office… Someone is going to do this. Someone is going to gather information about everything that comes across the lines and store it.
The thing people seem to fail to realize that are massively freaking out about it is that it’s not like theres a room with 50 guys listening/reading and watching every single thing people do. The ammount of manpower needed to keep up on somethin glike this in any usable time frame would be impossible.
They vet information when they believe something is up. They can get anything on any one of us but its not like some guys giggling looking at a picture of your tiny pecker you just sent to someone.
This is going to happen one way or another, its just a matter of how its handelded. ISP’s have been storing this kind of information for a long time, its only recent that people got angry because it became “mandatory” to hold it for 18 months, but they all collected your data. Facebook stores EVERYTHING, they admitted it, even if you perminately delete your account (which you can do, they still store that information permanately) Hell they just got in trouble because they were gathering information from outside of facebook. You could download your facebook contacts list and get phone numbers, home addresses of those of your friends and some of the “friends of friends” who have NEVER put that information on facebook but somehow facebook got it. Verizon does it, every site you have an account with… google as well… they all store your data, its there probably forever…
This can be a good thing if regulated properly, using it for fishing expeditions is not okay. If I decided to move a ton of cocaine and they saw a text come through the pipe… is it okay for them to act on that alone? That was something that was thought to be a private communication between two people that otherwise they would have not known about unless having a warrant.
I’m totally fine with them using this to the worlds benefit, but only if its done in a proper legal mannor.
and realisticly if I don’t want them to see anything… Well thats what my VPN is for.
Nope
this can go both ways. it can help but at the same time it cant help.
i wish it worked every time to intercept a massive drug bust… but like the sbardy said they dont have the manpower to have 50ppl read or hear you. they just do it to special people that have flaged something.
if everyone in power was a honest person with morals the world would be a better place. so vote wisely.
I’m very much against it, mostly because of one of the quotes I have found to be the most true:
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.” -Benjamin Franklin
I feel that similar to gun laws, it can only help very little before it’ll become too much. For example, I’m all for background checks before firearm purchases, but I am not for pretty much any other regulation having to do with firearms. I feel that although there may be good intentions with this spying of American citizens, the benefits do not outweigh the drawbacks. We are supposed to be a free people. Free people should not be spied upon by their own government.
Actual quote
“Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.”
You could literally purchase safety at that time.
If you’re curious look further into the background and context of that quote…
However its the very nature of the beast when it comes to digtal data that everything is logged one way or another. There is a trace in every little thing you do in the digital age.
If you look past the thought of someone “grabbing” your data, its always stored. An email you send now has two copies, yours and the one sent. How many people delete there e-mails regularly? Not many, hardly anyone cares to go and delete traces of any email because they feel safe behind their password. In big corporations e-mails whether you and the recipient delete them is irrelevant, companies keep backups of all communications for legal reasons.
Everything you do on this forum is now logged and kept somewhere. Even if you go through and edit and delete all your posts (unless your an admin) there is a record of everything you said.
Everytime you type something into google or go to a website, your ISP is logging that request, not just to be snoopy but it needs to be done to troubleshoot problems as well.
Sure these logs can be purged, and they sometimes are, but storage is cheap these days and in the eyes of many its far more beneficial to keep as much data as possible.
We’re talking digital here… and as I said Everything you do, every link you click on… every word you submit is now logged and stored, its the nature of how things work. Sure there are services and methods to have real time conversations, encrypt your internet communication etc but thats just not how this world works right now except for the few that know and want to do it.
They are taking advantage of somethign thats been there since the dawn of the internet and digital communications. Now granted mostly this was done in a correct legal fashion, agency gets warrant, serves to ISP or various other internet company and gets the data… The method in which the NSA is doing it is a little sneaky I will admit. They are simply just pulling in all incomming traffic before it ever reacher the data center to bypass the whole Warrant thign because they have a direct line to the data before it ever gets to where its going… However I also see there reasons for doing so, being able to pick out and vet information to pick out communications from terrorists and other evil plots so to speak. It’s not like they have been knocking down the doors of your friend for buying a dime bag.
Completely right? No… but if it was transparent and we knew about it, if a bill was passed publically and a way for voters to voice their concerns then I’d be more comfortable with it. However the does not change the fact that it should not be used for fishing expeditions.
^ To add to what you said, anybody at NSA or even any person out there could just scour through random forums and see publicly people threatening government leadership, talking about illegal activities and providing circumstantial evidence to other aspects to their life… voluntarily… publicly.
The amount of digital information publicly available with a little investigation on the internet is mind blowing. Anon and similar have proved that over and over again.
Wasnt there a scandal ~6 years ago where there were companies who you could pay $20 lets say and look at phone (maybe even text) records of anybody else?
False.
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
This was written by Franklin, sometime shortly before February 17, 1775 as part of his notes for a proposition at the Pennsylvania Assembly, as published in Memoirs of the life and writings of Benjamin Franklin (1818).
A variant of this was published as:
“Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.”
This was used as a motto on the title page of An Historical Review of the Constitution and Government of Pennsylvania. (1759); the book was published by Franklin; its author was Richard Jackson, but Franklin did claim responsibility for some small excerpts that were used in it.
Source: Benjamin Franklin - Wikiquote
Hardly false.
His earliest relevant attributed variant of quote on the matter
“Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power.” Poor Richard’s Almanack (1738)
Full quote in context
In fine, we have the most sensible Concern for the poor distressed Inhabitants of the Frontiers. We have taken every Step in our Power, consistent with the just Rights of the Freemen of Pennsylvania, for their Relief, and we have Reason to believe, that in the Midst of their Distresses they themselves do not wish us to go farther. Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Such as were inclined to defend themselves, but unable to purchase Arms and Ammunition, have, as we are informed, been supplied with both, as far as Arms could be procured, out of Monies given by the last Assembly for the King’s Use; and the large Supply of Money offered by this Bill, might enable the Governor to do every Thing else that should be judged necessary for their farther Security, if he shall think fit to accept it. Whether he could, as he supposes, “if his Hands had been properly strengthened, have put the Province into such a Posture of Defence, as might have prevented the present Mischiefs,” seems to us uncertain; since late Experience in our neighbouring Colony of Virginia (which had every Advantage for that Purpose that could be desired) shows clearly, that it is next to impossible to guard effectually an extended Frontier, settled by scattered single Families at two or three Miles Distance, so as to secure them from the insiduous Attacks of small Parties of skulking Murderers: But thus much is certain, that by refusing our Bills from Time to Time, by which great Sums were seasonably offered, he has rejected all the Strength that Money could afford him; and if his Hands are still weak or unable, he ought only to blame himself, or those who have tied them.
Original quote from Benjamin Franklin, “Pennsylvania Assembly: Reply to the Governor”, November 11, 1755;
Modified quote shows up four years later
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania (1759)
Franklin was pleading to get funds, guns and equipment so the Colonie could create it’s own security instead of relying on the Kings direction which wasn’t working.
anybody that is for or doesn’t care about nsa surveillance is a fucking moron that also doesn’t know or care about this country. please no longer consider yourself a patriot but consider yourself a fucking retard.
and i’m done with that.
+1
Only post I read in this thread.
:hug
Knowing your view from various posts etc I understand your comment. I partially agree with it, however I know its not going to change the fact that its going to happen, legally or illegally which is why I said I’m for it so long as their is regulation…
There will never be a day where everything fucked up, immoral and illegal that this governent does that one day someone will say “Taksies backsies”
Unless there is a major revoloution and the slate is wiped clean, once something happens it sticks… thats just how it works. The minute it becomes a reality good luck getting them to actually stop. Even if they say their decommision this project it will still be run, except now we won’t know about it…
We know about it, its here… You’re being tracked, isntead of getting pissed off we need to figure out what we can do to make sure this isnt used improperly to the best of our abilities. For fucks sake even ron paul says that we need it, but that there needs to be a process, it cannot be used for fishing expeditions… It must go though lawful channels and there needs to be transparancy. This comming from the guy who pretty much wanted to undo everything else
On the eavesdropping issue, he said “absolutely” he has the legal authority to order such surveillance, citing Article 2 of the Constitution, which he said gives him the responsibility and authority to deal with an enemy who declares war against the United States. After the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks, Congress also gave him the authority to use force against Al Qaeda, he noted, to tackle an “unconventional enemy,” some of whom lived in U.S. communities.
Last I recall this was being defended as that if you were against Government trying to do everything in it’s power to monitor for terrorist activities, you were anti-american…
President secretly authorized the National Security Agency to eavesdrop on Americans and others inside the United States to search for evidence of terrorist activity without the court-approved warrants ordinarily required for domestic spying, according to government officials.
Using the terrorist threat IMO is getting old, this was going to happen with or without the threat of “terrorism”
idk about you guys but i feel like other people/businesses sell my cell phone number and home phone.
how can someone make money selling numbers from the phone books?
facebook owns everything you posted. read the disclamier you signed without reading as most usually do.
Anyone who is for passing things in the name of “safety” can go fuck right off.
I Feel like every post you make Vlad is an attempt to try and eventually provoke people into an arguement, prove your intellegence and then get upset when people take the bait. Every thread you post like this you know youre going to get a rise out of people, arguee it to the end of the earth and back then, get mad. I dont get it.
National Security Agency documents provided to The Guardian by Edward Snowden reveal a system that, as of 2008, allowed analysts to search “nearly everything a typical user does on the internet,” according to one document.
I also love the fact that once I got my new phone I had to sing off and acknowledge 30 times that they can have access to my data, my contacts, my web etc etc etc.