Bah… Q you’re killing me…
no these were solid rivents… BUT aircraft rivets ( not the kind you get at home despot ), leave the core in and cut the tail off, giving you the very smlilar characteristics… I use those myself , you can get them from any aircraft supplier ( check the local buttonvielle or area rejional airport for suppliers local to you ) or I can order them, they are like .5 more then normal one… I use 1/8" is the min and 1/4" is the max… an air compressor rivet gun , not a $5 pop rivet gun is what you need, princess auto has them for @ $25 …
I believe I speak for us all when I say I’m eagerly waiting to see your stock engined, stock chassied, non-tube framed car roll out for the '05 season Bob :lol: Not everyone can be as hardcore and extreme as you 
[/quote]
I believe I speak for us all when I say grow up.
Thanks for the info. I know it would be quite impossible to rivet using the hand.
One other thing that you guys forgot that you can do is the foam that hardens… I don’t know what it’s called, or where to get it in Canada…
You see… with our cars the frame rail is so weak, that if you jack up there by mistake it’ll just crush the frame… I know because I did it…
check page one for reference to foam :lol: been doing that for awhile… first car i ever did it on was way back in 85 on my 84’ GLI Jetta, daed had some left over from an eng. project he was doing … so i mexed p @ 1/2 L and filled both rockers with 1/2 … expanded right the hell out the hole I had to pout it in, had to use a peen ball hammer and my weight to lean on the hole so it wouldn’t come out but damn if it didn’t tighten that frame up like I’d put a X brace on the bottom…
anyway , it’s a 2 part expanding close cell foam you want… it’s not cheap anymore. but it’s allot cheaper then seaming everything together…
This “no one” is seam welding his S13. Who in their right mind would even consider using a TIG for that? MIG territory.
Rivet? Interesting idea, you wouldn’t have to clean all the paint/tar/seam sealer off, but you would have to drill about 10,000 holes and put in 10,000 rivets - after buying them. And it wouldn’t be as strong.
Bonding… yeah, maybe a suitable solution when initially assembling the car, but bonding requires the two pieces to be seperated and the bonding agent put between them. What good is it supposed to do just putting it on top of an existing seam?
Urethane core - might get some decent results out of this, but keeping in mind that it needs to be ‘contained’ the only places you could realistically use it would be the quasi frame rails, rockers and fender horns on a S13. The whole idea of seam welding is to stiffen up the whole car, not just the parts that are already the stiffest though.
If you really want to stiffen up a car, seam weld it, put in a decent cage that ties into the strut mounts front and back. Anything else will be a comprimise.
-Martin.
yes well WAY back in the 60’s that might have been a valid argument and chioce… but evcept for a very very few places on a frame, welding is simply NOT done anymore. 90% of all frame stiffening done on big power cars in japan is rivets and foam, with seams bonded… You don’t have to take my word for it , go look at just about ANY jap tunning mag. go look at some of the light weight bodied JGTCC or even some of the more advanced ALMS or Speed cup cars… also , mig welding puts WAY too much heat into the thin sheetmetal, I don’t care how good you are… TIG is my choice becuse it focuses the heat to a much smaller footprint…
bonding only requires two exposed emtal surfaces to work properly, this isn’t some jBweld or 3M bonding adhesive for construction, this is automotive 2 part body glue… might and day difference.
foam does need to be contained but the quality of the support and the tinly ammount of added weight far outweighs the requiremnet to bond a few 20ga pc of sheet to a few spots…
It sounds like maybe you’ve been hanging out with the late model oval track geezers too long.
This “no one” is seam welding his S13. Who in their right mind would even consider using a TIG for that? MIG territory.
and don’t be so down on yourself, your a sombody and people like you…
Rivets and foam are for those who don’t have the equipment, skill, or are too lazy to do it properly… it’s obvious which camp you fall into…
A TIG weld will put far more heat into a given work piece than a MIG for the same weld. Perhaps you’ve never used either?
Any race/rally cars that have to maintain the stock floorpan, fire walls, suspension pickup points are ALL SEAM WELDED. The only type of weld that a RIVET would be stronger than is a spot weld, which is probably what they were comparing to in your Mitsu evo example… and everyone knows that spot welds are prone to seperating when the chassis is exposed to severe loads. Hence the reason everyone seam welds.
Obviously they don’t seam weld ALMS cars, most of them are either composite tubs or tube frames, there is nothing to seam weld!
You got one thing right though, and I’m sure it was a pure guess, I do hang out at the ovals, but I race a car that I built, and it’s probably the most sucessful mini-stock in Ontario, it’s a 240… I’ve also built many other race and rally cars… Oddly enough any advice I ever give is based on relavent personal experience.
So where did you get all your experience, maybe read it somewhere on the web?
-Martin.
hostility , my my… I hear Dr. phil in the wings for you now…
Not that I require ANY form of justification from the stone age ( weld or go home school , which should have died with the rebel flag… ) You obviosuly have no clue about ANY of these materials and how to apply them… my experience comes from oh @ 20 years of working/welding/ building/ fabricating/designing everything from 6 person aircraft to turbine powered cat boats… Building performance unibodies since 84-85’… USING foam/bonding cememts and composites in everything from 500hp fan push fan blades to 500hp FC3S…
you want an exapmple of just how strong a simple aircraft riviet is? go look at ANY aircraft wing that has ANY metal skin… you see GASP! rivets… taking 3-4 G day in and out … for yars on end… you dont’ see welding anywhere on the skin, only on the inner tube frame. you want pics I’ve got tonnes of aircraft at my fathers aircfraft shop, you want prrof on the bonding angents? go take a ride in a focus or any modern US built car… all the main frame parts that MAKE the unitbody are BONDED , not welded and most of these bond point are NOT lipped, flanged or flat but complex curves.
As for my welding skills and equipment, there arethose here who can attestt to my TIG skills in in alloys, ferrous and exotics. if you don’t know how to use a TIG then you pump a tonne of heat into a spot… it’s called a burn through.
Oh and of course to back up all this ’ justification is a BSc… plus a few years of 1.6L open wheel , 6 years of building my own SOLO II/I cars… … for somereason an ‘easy left-easy left-easy left’ is not my ideal way to prove your ability to build anall round car… just one with dumb stagger, silly camber setups and yokels from ’ missing teeth R us’ … here’s an idea try a right turn one day…
also ALMS has 4-5 catagories dude… I don’t see too many porsche GT3’s or M3’s with composite tubs …
You do what you want, but frankly the world has evolved since the 60’s… maybe you should go out and learn about these products and thier properties before you start running at the moputh like some hillbilly from big jim-bob’s pig farm…
Oh my, I like your style. 
this is very quickly becoming a big penis show off contest…
and frankly… i win neways…
so this will probly be locked soon if you dont stop bickering.
GT
Rotorkami Wa,
I humbly appologise… you obviously do have lots of varied experience. It’s good to see that you’re not just repeating something you read somewhere as being gospel. Yes I’m somewhat old school, but when you fund all your own racing, and race in classes where mdifications are limited you’re pretty restricted as to what you can do.
Keep in mind we’re talking cars though, not airplanes… I figured you for an airplane guy when you spec’d 4130 for a cage material… good stuff, but most sanctioning bodies won’t let you use it for a cage because they don’t think most of us can weld it using the right preceedure.
Also you brought up ALMS and referred to some of the more advanced cars using bonding - hence my reference to tubs and tube framed cars. Though I love GT3 Porches I don’t consider them advanced compared to the sports prototypes.
BTW… I’ve been welding and racing for over 25 years, raced F1600 for 8 or so, am currently building a 240 rally car to compete in CRC, and I have all my teeth as do all my crew and my friends.
Peace!
-Martin.
peace brother … I’ve been stonewalled in allot of doorways by old schoolers and the exasperation sometimes seeps through… good to see another formula driver out in the world…
I’ve got a zx2 that’s currently being pre prepped for a RWD TARGA car, Thought about rally but I don’t have time to do the repairs that I would need to do with myslef at the wheel not wanting to let off the gas…
This kids is how ‘arguments’ should be settled! :lol:
Thanks to both of you for all the input, I’ve learned a lot 
Targa is also one of our goals, hopefully this year… maybe we’ll see you there!
zx2, wasn’t that the last variation of the Ford Escort? Will you be running Cosworth/Sierra drivetrain?
-Martin.
Yes it was. The “sporty” 2-door version with different bumpers and such.
actually the drive train will be an RB20det with an FC3S rear end. Weight balance and positioning being the reaoning for those chioces…
I’d like to get a cossie with the AWD or even the 323 gtx/gtr drivetrain as it’s a direct bolt in, but that’s very very rare now to find even a GTX engine never mind the drive train. IT’s funny , the engine code for the cossie is YBT the engine code for the zetech is YB , it’s the same engine but it’s been modified in the heads and internals to be a very LOOONG running na… however for Targa, FR is the way to go…
but this is going to be a perfect example or the marriage between some seam welding, lots of foam, lots of rivets, bonding glue, and lots of vac baggged carbon reinforcments…
not trying to add any fuel to the fire, but this tuning company out in Japan seam welds ALL of their time attack cars
http://www.feast-power.com/rsf/top.htm
and their rides don’t look very old school, even if their mentality is…
and yes, i read that in a magazine, and no, i don’t have the experience of either roto or Martin (frig, i’m only 27), but if i was to steal/imitate ideas, i’d do it from people with a proven track record. not to take away anything from u roto, but i’d rather seam weld the chassis than rivet, or a combo of the 2 (i have minimal experience with both techniques, so don’t waste your breath telling me to STFU).
have a good one
seam welding has it’s place, ( I said this earlier ) I was doing it last night actually… there ae things that only a metal to metal structure will work with… some JDM tuning shop will seam everything, some don’t just like over here; some will some won’t… my argument has always been that are better ways to so somethings with modern tools/materials. seam welding is good buyt if you can use foam to not only add torsianl but structural regidity in a 3 D form rather then just at a 2D weld point, then do it… if you can rivet and no add heat to the frame in sensative area then do it… if you can bond and get the same results as seaming , then do it… but you don’t have too… I’ve just been around long enough to feel comfortable with the products and apply them accordingly… I don’t expect everyone to do the same, not at all…
i was not putting down your methods in anyway. In fact, i’d love to learn more about it, since guys in my gen are the future and only really have the old skoolers to look up to and learn from. I’ve always wanted to know the new and cutting edge techniques for ANY application. but there is always the case of experimenting on your baby, it usually won’t happen. unfortunatly, i don’t have a spare frame to mess around with. i think it would be great if u could snap pics of your methods roto, or maybe have a group meet to play around with the different techniques. i’m sure u can find a few donor 240’s, with trial and error and alot of brainstorming, i’m sure the peeps of this forum could find the perfect places to use each application, therefor giving a super strong S chassis with minimal time/$$$.
anyways, this is one of the best discussions i’ve seen on this forum for a long time, keep it going…
like a few mentioned earlier, the frame rail is pretty weak on the s14 model at least (i crushed mine too q)!!! the area is prone to rust, and i believe in the FSM it shows one of the jacking points on the rail (don’t quote me please). are there any braces for this particular area? or would u recomend just welding on a new piece of rail? this is an area i have to fix asap, any suggestions would be much appreciated