US Rep Gabrielle Giffords shot in Arizona

We have more GUN crimes because we have more guns. But that doesn’t mean we have more crime in general just because we have more guns. Not all crime or homicide is committed with guns.

The discussion shouldn’t be a comparison of gun crimes rates, but a comparison of crime or homicide in general to see if guns really play a role.

Canada is the only other western nation close enough to an apples-to-apples comparison, but there are still many differences;

Looking only at American states which border Canada, the homicide rate in those states is generally no higher, and often lower, than in adjacent Canadian provinces.[203] Similarly, if one excludes Americans residing in southern states from overall American crime statistics, America’s crime rate is comparable to Canada’s.[204] Other studies have attributed the difference in Canadian and American crime rates to the contrasting sociological mix of the two nations. The death rate for non-hispanic white Americans from all types of shootings (murder, suicide, accident, etc.) is comparable to the Canadian rate.[205] One study compared twenty-five Canadian cities with twenty-five comparably-sized American cities. When the covariates of “percent black” and “city size” where considered, the difference between American and Canadian samples diminished to the point of insignificance.[206] In other words, the higher American homicide rate was attributable to the fact that America is much more densely urban than Canada, and that America has a much higher percentage of blacks in its population.

The fact that any number of sociological differences, including race, urbanization, and the presence of southerners, can statistically account for the difference in homicide rates between the two countries suggests that the new Canadian gun law is itself ineffective. In other words, if Americans and Canadians, statistically stripped of sociological differences, have the same homicide rate–even though the Americans have much looser gun laws–then certainly the Canadian gun laws are not a satisfactory explanation of Canada’s lower (p.33)homicide rate. The data offer little reason to believe that the Canadian gun laws reduce homicide.

While the data undermine the claims of the Canadian gun control activists, they do not necessarily rule out the need for American gun control. Because America is more urbanized, suffers from more racial tension, and is perhaps influenced by a southern subculture of violence, the United States might be all the more in need of tighter gun control. Perhaps some areas of the United States are so mired in a culture of violence that they would benefit from tighter control or disarmament.

On the other hand, if statistics show that gun density does not correlate with crime levels, then reducing gun density is probably not the most effective way to reduce crime. Since gun laws per se are not associated with crime reduction (as the Canadian experience and comparison with the United States seems to indicate), it is likely that other strategies would better address America’s problem of urban and ethnic violence. Perhaps the effort should be to deal directly with the social conditions that make southerners, blacks, hispanics, and urbanites so much more likely to be victims and perpetrators of crime.

That last paragraph in this Comparative Law Journal article has been affirmed twice recently; in D.C. and Chicago. In both cases, each city enacted gun bans. And after years of homicide rates INCREASING the supreme court struck down the bans because they obviously did not work.

It’s a good read comparing and contrasting the US and CAN on gun control; CANADIAN GUN CONTROL: SHOULD THE UNITED STATES LOOK NORTH FOR A SOLUTION TO ITS FIREARMS PROBLEM?

That article basically boils down to saying that if there were less urbanites, Hispanics, blacks and/or southerners in America, the gun crime rates would be comparable to Canada. So what it’s really saying is that if america had less Americans they’d be just fine.

lol, read it again. The excerpt I posted doesn’t mention gun crime rates at all.

It points out the social variables in the homicide rate equation that are different between the two countries in order to make a point about the effects of gun laws.

When you look at gun crimes alone, obviously the country with greater access to guns will have more gun-specific crime. In the same way that people who own cars will have more car accidents than people who do not own cars. But will increased guns increase crime overall? Data shows either no difference or just the opposite.

Consider this excerpt;

Even before the 1977 Bill, Canadian civilians were less armed than Americans. Perhaps as a result, five times as many burglaries were committed against occupied residences in Canada than in the United States.[177] A Toronto study found that 48% of (p.28)burglaries were against occupied homes, and 21% involved a confrontation with the victim.[178] Only 13% of United States residential burglaries are attempted against occupied homes.[179] Most Canadian residential burglaries occur in the nighttime, while American burglars prefer daytime entry to reduce the risk of a confrontation. When an American burglar strikes at an occupied residence, his chance of being shot is at least equal to his chance of being sent to jail.[180] Since Bill C-51 took effect, the breaking and entering rate in Canada rose 25%, and has even surpassed the American rate.[181]

At the risk of making this post look like one from A_Hamed, here’s a funny take on all this with Penn & Tellers “Bullshit”;

And an ABC story for a more serious take;

I don’t feel like doing it again, but one time I dug up on here some info where I showed that after Australia banned guns their crime rate rose and didn’t start going down until surprise the economy was growing and people had things like jobs and good lives. There was little to no correlation to their gun ban and crime, and a strong inverse correlation with the economy. It almost makes sense.

WAT?!

The only way that makes sense is based on the law of dimishing returns. At some point you reach a peak correlation between incremental increases in gun and subsequent crime. Once you reach that peak the next gun added has less impact on crime than the last… so i guess if you have so many guns that you are at the point where one more gun has no impact on crime then you’d be right… But at that point you are so far towards the end of hte bell curve that it’s irrelevant to debate anyways.

That makes sense but economic policy is not a replacement for gun control. BTW, gun control in Canada is a mess but for completely different reasons.

You’re assuming all guns are used for crime and a direct correlation between the two. Adding guns does not add crime.

by American idealogy more guns does not necessarily equal more crime, but clearly there is an international statistical relationship between guns or access to guns and more crime.

splitting hairs now.

giffords is in rehab… I wonder which show she’ll do first when she can talk again.

I also wonder if the networks are solicting her family now and paying up front for the first interview.

Probably Anderson Cooper

Word. Economic policy actually has effects. A glass of water is a more appropriate replacement for gun control.

It’s not ideology, it’s statistics. We have years of gun bans in D.C. and Chicago that show as guns decreased, gun crimes increased (I think it was 80% of all homicides in D.C. were committed with guns.) That’s why those bans are no more.

That may be so, and it shows that it’s not always possible to take what works elsewhere in the world and apply it another place irrespective of the differences in those places. Democracy in Afghanistan for example, lol.

or democracy anywhere ?

The U.S. isn’t a Democracy, it’s a Republic :slight_smile:

I’d shoot you right now if my government would sell me a gun

My government doesn’t sell guns either. It doesn’t even make them.

pleading innocent is bullshit.

Yep, but an insanity defense isn’t an easy one. The federal charges that are coming are the route to the death penalty. But proving insanity will only keep him from being killed and he’ll likely still get life in prison.

its a total cop out though.

he knows what he did… he planned and it and clearly doesnt have any remorse. He should plead guilty on principal. This way he isn’t even giving himself credit for what he did… as backwards as that sounds.