V-10s have become all the rage in Europe in the last half-decade or so. The Carrera GT was the first I can remember, although the Gallardo was a close second. Correct me on that, but I think the GT concept was 2000 and the Lam didn’t come about until '03 or '04? Of course Audi’s using them too, and it was the RS6 post that made me go back and re-read the above article.
Basically, V-10s were a replacement for older big-block V8s for emissions reasons. However, there were complications that made them not as simple as adding two cylinders on the same bore-center.
I know fuck-all about Volkswagen Auto Group’s V10s, so if anyone has info on block-angle or crank configuration I’d love to see how they overcame the balance issues.
Point is, V10s have some serious performance benefits compared to a same-displacement V8. Smoothness of operation is not one of those things, but check out the expected performance of a 6,000 lb truck at the bottom of the article (comparing V8 and V10 options).
The huge benefit of a v10 over a v8 is the ability to use a single plane crankshaft VS typical v8 cross plane due to the layout of the engine and firing order. Rotating assembly balance is a bit wacky sometimes and usually worked out with precise dynamic balancing and/or a counter shaft directly above or below the crank. Typically above as most performance V10’s are dry sumped and stuffed low in the engine bay.
The V10 crazy really originate in Cart and later F1, where the big time manufacturers(Mclaren, Daimler, BMW, Ferrari, etc) put their development funds into. This day and age we are starting to reap in those benefits now. The CG-T engine, in my opinion, is the second greatest road car engine ever produced and second only to the S72/2 BMW V12 residing in the Mclaren road car.
I was just talking to JClark awhile back about some of the serious bad-ass 2.8L-3.0 V8 engines that are being produced right now by a hand full of small companies for race cars chassis like DP1, F2000, etc. Essentially using the heads and cylinders from two Hyabusa engines, one off CNC billet crankcases and sinlge plane cranks. Approx 400Hp at 10,500 rpm, naturally aspirated. Did I mention the sound :lol I had considered doing this for my kit car, as I have the ability and facilities to machine the cases + crank, but make a V10 using busa rods/psitons in one off cases and nickasil plated billet cylinders(much like what Porsche uses in the 911’s). Overall cost though nipped it in the butt quick
I should also say that the vibration associated with a V10 isn’t the typical left/right/up/down stuff you’d get from most engines. It’s torsional vibration through the crank centerline, and a harmonic that moves front to rear. Harmonic balancer a must. The Porsche CG-T engine actually has a “liquid” filled crankshaft…the last 2" of the crank at the PTO(flywheel) has an insert that is filled with some type of proprietary fluid to absorb the harmonic at that end, with a very small HB at the accessory end. Helps reduce rotational mass furthest away from the crank centerline, which helps the motor rev quicker.
This beautiful motor right here HOME PAGE... … I saw this a few months back and I was like :ohnoes … This thing is seriously bad ass, not a lot of torque but fuckin quick for a little hyabusa v8
:nod Yup, that’s the one. I could make something like that for myself but cost about $15K or so to complete. If I were to do so I’d rather make a V10 and that’s where prices sky rocket as I’d have to machine everything from the valve covers down(no body makes inline 5 cylinder bike stuff). I estimated I could do one for myself for around $25K, and that’s my cost. Makes doing a one off r26B four rotor wankel look really cheap(~8K)
Wow, thats crazy. But that motor is something else… it sounds so sweet for being so small… being able to rev to 10500 = secks… the only thing that might steer people away is its low torque numbers, 275ft lbs… but still for such a small motor the power it puts out it quite impressive
When did the V10s hit cart/F1? I know in F1 the turbo era ran from ~'77 (Lotus kicking it off, to save weight, using on-the-books rules regarding supercharging) to the mid-late '80s. It only ended a few seasons ago for the 2.4L V8s.
I’ve seen some things about the 'Busa V8s – in particular someone that put one in a Lotus 7 kit chassis. Brilliant idea, I think.
My only reservation about the V10 is that, to compensate for harmonic/balance forces compromises have to be made. If that comes in the form of added/adjusted counterweights, how would that generally effect the upper RPMs?
Is that why the Carrera GT did not have a proper flywheel? When they first hit the streets every reviewer complained of stalling them because you had to launch them from 3,000 RPMs as a rule – on what was rumored to be a rather fragile ceramic clutch.
I’m not sure if this is related, but isn’t the V10 so low in the CGT that the flywheel would have to be really small in diameter? Small enough that it wouldn’t have sufficient inertia to smooth out RPM variations from the V10? Just a guess…
All the major F1/GP engine manufacturers/teams had v10’s at one point IIRC Cosworth, Renault, Toyota, Peugeot, Ilmor, Ferrari, Sauber, Mclaren, BMW, Honda, etc. I think even Yamaha and Porsche produced them at one point(Although Porsche failed…gasp!!) Mid 8-'s to '95 wasn’t it… I thing the F1 GP rule change was just in 2006 wasn’t it??? Switched from the 3.0L v10’s to the 2.5 v8’s. Was like the biggest change in some 15 odd years???
Rumor is actually true…CGT clutch is something people just are not used to and is delicate… Few understand that the CGT actually has logic in the DME to get the car moving w/o applying throttle from a stop(to facilitate non stall). Let clutch out and DME applies it’s own throttle to move the car Most just turn it off or ignore it for performance use, but then beat the ever living hell out of a $9000 clutch system(plus R&R labor) and bitch when it doesn’t modulate like their GT2 Or F40. Gemballa makes a triple plate organic substitute for about $10K and eliminates all the issues. The PCCC disks are fragile and prone to shattered under extreme shock/abrupt starts. It’s like trying to modulate a QM twin disk semi metallic clutch…damn near impossible, except imagine the center hubs are made of ceramic. There is a FW on the CGT…just REALLY small. More of a flex plate if anything. The main chunk of the rotational inertia comes form the twin plate button clutch. Same type of setup as found on the Mclaren F1. Indy car stuff. About the same weight as a typical clutch, but the weight is tighter/closer the to crank centerline for rev happiness. Porsche really just designed the engine that way for the simple fact of getting the engine as low as possible in the car for better CG. The clutch was kind of an afterthough and was actually made on a whim based on their PCCB brake technology.
No doubt the balance issue woes the v10, and it certain that an counter balance addition affect top end rpm useage because then the balance shafts start creating their own harmonics. Probably why you won’t see a flat 10 form Porsche, just too damn complicated to sort out. Flat 12…nows that’s a different story Building 917 Engine, Click on image to see more Photo Gallery by Carl Thompson at pbase.com
wow you really know your shit, my head hurts from reading those atricles and trying to understand everything you are saying. build something fast and take me for a ride. :nod
+1 except im not a complete tard like swiffers here :tong (swift can’t even fill his windshield fluid ::)) … I know what your saying/talking about in these I just dident know a lot of it before, hard to find time to keep up on my differant engines and their mechanics ;D … but seriously man you do know your shit… how long you been touching engines since you were like 9 months old lol\
P.S. that flat 12 is biiiiiiitchen … I’d love to hear how that thing sounds
I’ve driven a couple diff CGT’s…as BoxerSix stated to modulate the clutch from a stop…you do NOT touch the throttle. The car automatically controls the throttle, all you do is find where the clutch catches and release it as you would any car…slow to roll to a start or quicker if you wanna jump on it…then apply throttle…it’s actually quite remarkable how smart the car is to know exactly what you’re doing every time just by how you let out of the clutch. Then it’s all right foot fun and banging through that beautiful gearbox…I never did get used to the crazy shifter location, though :idiots
