Closing Gitmo: Yay or Nay?

Well what ever floats your boat. Do you care what I do to you… Hell I’ll stalk you for a few days, wait until you are in an alley… Ambush you, toss you in a van with a few friends with a bag over your head… Who knows where you are gonna go, what does it matter, this is your best chance to escape, but you are passed out because we kicked your ass, and have a broken arm.

We arrive at the destination while you are still passed out, toss you in the shittiest room of the house tied up like a pig, and we wait for you to wake up. Hopefully you do, I want to hear you scream when I kick you in the ribs a few times. Toss your face in some water, long enough where you get the sensation of drowning and finally crack and tell me some information I want to know. Like when your friends are headed home so we can do the same to them.

Then when we’re done with you got what we need, we put you on video, point a gun at your head, make you tell everyone you love “that you are a traitor, everything you love is wrong, your country is a shit hole”

And execute you, probably with a shitty knife so it tears your skin and makes you feel even more pain as we cut your head off.

Then package up the video, send it to your family because we were able to get your address out of you (thanks for that)

Why did I do this? BECAUSE YOU ARE AN AMERICAN, AND WE WANT TO SEND AN IMAGE TO THE AMERICAN PUBLIC.

But by all means, when you capture me, feed me nice food, give me warm clothes and let me sit there. Talk to me politely though!

:mamoru: I win. You have nothing logical to add, and your stories are bull shit so…I win.

Yes, we are Americans. Our country is better than theirs because we have a concept of natural human rights and liberties, we have a concept of systemic justice, and we support it. The people who suffer the fate you’re talking about are aware of the risk they’re taking when they set foot in a land where Islamic fundimentalism has taken root. I’m not excusing the behavior, but there’s a measure of informed consent. Most non-military assignments are voluntary, and so on.

Your argument that it’s what they’d do to us is that much more of a reason for us NOT to do it to them. We’re (theoretically) civilized. We treat others with respect and care. We take the time to look for the distinction between our enemies and innocent bystanders.

When we catch a terrorist, they should be detained. They should be fed, and clothed. They should be kept safe and healthy, but not comfortable.

You’re still comfortably ignoring the innocents though.

You’re walking down an alley near your home, about to return to your family for dinner, when men speaking a strange language shove a gun into your back, put hand-cuffs on you, and throw you in a van with a bag over your head. Eventually, after some time, you’re able to speak to someone who speaks your language, and who informs you that you have been arrested due to your connections to suspected terrorists, and that you will be transferred half-way around the world.

You’re transferred over. You’re beaten. You’re placed on an inclined plane, and water is carefully poured into your sinuses and mouth so that you’re able to breathe only in very shallow breaths, and your body is convinced that you’re drowning. A wet rag is placed over your mouth. You’re blindfolded. You’re left like this for quite some time. The agents ask you questions that you don’t understand - who you report to, what you know. They won’t stop. They keep doing it.

After weeks, you can’t take it anymore. You name names. Their only crimes? Being people you know, have associated with, and perhaps don’t like. They’ll be arrested now, too. You’re not a terrorist, and neither are they, but you named names, because you simply wanted to end the misery. You keep talking, to keep them from torturing you again. You babble. You make up missions, names, meeting places. The agents will investigate them, and waste precious time that could be spent looking for real terrorists, chasing the ravings of a man half-mad from torture.

It’s 5 years later. You’re sitting in a cell, your wife is living in poverty because you cannot support her. Your sons did their best, but they look upon your captors with hate, even though you tried to instill in them the peaceful, loving aspects of your religion. They see your captors as barbarians, who have ruined their lives and must be punished. They become extremists. You, the innocent man, rot in prison without ever having the chance to defend yourself or face the accusations against you in court. While you may eventually be released (if minds like mine prevail, that is), your life is, for all intents and purposes, over.

My hypothetical is just as real as yours. We have control over what we do to my hypothetical, and none over yours.

You’re arguing that because Arab A committed terrible act, that Arab B who lives in the same town, and who might look suspicious should have his life ruined, just to be safe. At the same time, you’re willfully ignoring that the friends and family of Arab B have just been given a push towards extremism, when the innocent man they loved and admired was stolen away by the “Western Imperialist Swine,” or what have you.

We need to be hard on terror. We can kill those who fight us. Those who are arrested should not be tortured, because it’s not our way. We’re better than that, and we don’t need it (THE QUALITY OF THE FUCKING INTELLIGENCE IS COMPROMISED), and the satisfaction it gives is worth nothing compared to the suffering of innocents at our hands.

My stories are bullshit lol… cause I haven’t gotten the intel briefings when I go over to the desert and get to hear the wonderful scenarios and my best options in getting out of them.

Hey turns out, if you are in northern Afghanistan you have a .1% chance of surviving. Oh well who knew, looks like I don’t wanna go there

So you’ve never heard of someone getting out at after 25 years when they finally approved his release? Or how about sent off to the death penalty, and found out afterwords that OMG they were innocent…

Whoops… are system is awesome too!

Right? And how does torture on our part stop that?

When you’re fighting with an uncivilized foe, you don’t stoop to their level out of anger. Maybe that’s what you want, but you need to be better than that, or you’re just as bad as they are (except worse, because you’ve been exposed to a more moral system, and are still choosing barbarism).

When you’re arguing with a child, you don’t throw a tantrum, ask why, and stomp when you’re getting your way.

When you’re a police officer, you don’t shoot the families of gang-bangers to show them who is boss.

If we don’t keep to our principles when it’s tough to do so, they’re not principles. They’re worthless. We live in a country of character, of principles, of justice. I take it you’re a military man. You, and your friends, my friends, members of my family, men and women who educated me, helped me grow, and taught me what I know, fought and bled to protect America. To protect American ideals. Even if you’re short-sighted and weak enough to throw away what you’ve fought to protect, I value those principles far too much to cast them away for simple convenience.

Hi I’ve never tortured someone before.

Intelligence by any means necessary, is all I care about.

well i dont have the motivation to really explain but I am with LZ and ILC and i do not think it is a coincidence that we all have first had experience with relevant and current information about the subject. I will say that people do not make it to a place like Gitmo on accident I would say we have more innocent people in our own prison system then Gitmo. Im sorry but you guys screaming against it really just want to feel good about “your views”. not trying to be and asshole or get into a huge debate but thats how I feel.

Perfect Solution Fallacy

read it

I don’t “just” want to feel good about “my views,” I believe it’s well past time that we stop acting like animals and treat other human beings, even criminals, terrorists, and our enemies, with a base level of respect, out of consideration for the fact that people can be falsely accused and detained. And I think that anyone that we jail should be given the chance to at least argue their side.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is un-American. I don’t mean this in the traditional, “Vietnam Vet” sense of “get out of America if you don’t love it.” I mean that people who think otherwise are completely opposed to every principle that our free country was founded on. It’s sickening to me. That’s why I am arguing so strongly. Not because I want to feel good about myself. Because I think that anyone who even harbors such thoughts should have them crushed out of them by an overwhelming force of reason. Perhaps I’m not well-enough equipped to do so, but StrokedZ28 said it well earlier - people who actually try to justify such thoughts are a greater threat to our liberties and human rights than 100,000 terrorists.

Hi, I don’t think we should be doing any torturing. Effective, humane methods of information gathering? Sure! (we can use a combination of traditional (non-torture) means, drugs, and computer analysis of visual/audio/physiological cues to get better information than any amount of torture).

Torture in the 21st century, with the technology we have readily available, cannot be excused in any conceivable circumstances, and can only be explained by vindictiveness.

I’m going to have a conversation with my wall or a woman. It will probably provide much better feed back than this thread will ever have.

Great we have technologies that are readily available. Why not tell us what they are…

So I’ve decided to send ILC’s family to guantanamo to be tortured. They have to have some information that can help “save lives.” Plus once they’re in gitmo… they must be terrorists right? So I don’t have to feel bad about them being tortured.

Oh wait that’s flawed because hey, it could never happen to you right?

I’d expect ILC and others to be this retarded and childish… but cougarspeed? Come on guy… you truly truly think Guantanamo Bay should stay in use as it currently is?

OMG NOT DREW BLAKE!!

You realize there are a ton more detention camps all over the world right… Closing this camp will not do a single fucking thing about the others.

Fucking send them… If they were going to kill thousands of people I would thank you for sending them there.

But you’re not, and you’re either a complete fucking moron, or you’re ignoring that fact to try to serve your own point, and are stupid enough to think we won’t see it. Which is it?

It is not simple the way you think it is. You dont get fucking cuffed and go to Gitmo. There is a process and you will be at a series of prisons/fact finding before you would even be considered. I really am not elaborating to much cause I really am not allowed to but you are dead wrong about this innocent people end up there mindset. HAHAHA at best man im sorry but the people that make it there are in deep and you, your family, and the rest of the world are better off with them away and being tortured. Also I dont think you uinderstand how the place works at all a lot of the people there are NOT being tortured but big fggt d-bags that we refuse to let go untried. I dont really care if it stays in use hell its a great publicity stunt to get rid of it but I think the principal needs to stay intact. Aside from what you believe this principal is not to rape, pillage and torture the great citizens of foreign countries.

Last ditch effort. Everyone in gitmo is responsible for killing or planning to kill thousands of people? Where’s your proof of this? This is like having a conversation with my wall or a woman.

And yeah setting precedent NEVER helps, you’re right.

edit:

http://forum.travian.us/showthread.php?t=46863

You realize that many of us aren’t even suppose to be having this conversation right?

So you compare having a conversation with a wall with having conversation with a woman?

So you are sexist and Un-American? Are you sure you weren’t raised in the middle east?

:mamoru:

Do you have proof that there are innocent people at gitmo?

I am saying that the people there need to be there. Your guys mindset that just because it falls outside of regulation so you think everyone in the place is being tortured is ridiculous. Your though that innocent people are in the place is also ridiculous.