in spring i’m swapping my 90 gsx with a 92 talon tsi awd. i have dsmlink, full 3" exhaust, 2g exhaust mani and o2 housing, 2g maf, and big16g for the car, i have my stock side mount. i have read many things about how great methanol injection is where it lowers intake temps, higher octane, and basically stem cleans your engine. when i saw shepard running no intercooler and straight meth injection, it surprised me. so basically i just want to know if instead of getting a bigger fmic could i just get a good meth injection kit to get the same results. and on a side question with dsmlink can i run my bov non-recirculated. Thanks
methanol is a wonderful thing 
BUT that also being said, i wouldnt really use it as a “band-aid” to fix a problem, use it for saftey, but don’t depend on it
i agree with Jay, use meth as a compliment to a good intercooler and good fuel setup and ect… it will help either way but i would be safe and maybe do both
What Jay said. Keep your intercooler.
ok, i was going to buy all of my fuel stuff, and i’m keeping my intercooler, i was just wondering if i could use my smic and a good meth kit, instead of buying a more expensive fmic.
Here is the misconception. Methanol has been the “new” buzz thing on the internet and in the import world. The thing is this. Methanol is a band aid. It is a band aid for an improperly intercooled car. Methanol reduces your intake temps by removing the latent heat from the air charge. Methanol has an octance rating equivalent to 100 octane gasoline, so in effect if you are running 93 pump gas on the street methanol will add to that. That is how it helps aid in keeping detonation down in addition to lowering temps.
When said and done, the price of a properly designed methanol kit, constant refilling of methanol, parts that fail over time due to the corrosive nature of methanol and the meth tune far outweighs the cost of a proper intercooler and race gas. I left the cost of tuning out becasue the car needs to be tuned properly either way you choose to go.
Proper intercooling and race gas (100 or greater) is always > methanol + 93.
Besides Sunoco 100 = 5.29 a gallon
93= 2.80 ish a gallon
methanol = 3.00 a gallon
You do the math.
Yes it can provide power, however, the same gains can be had for less money over time if the intercooler and fuel system were setup properly from the start.
Methanol is more of a sales gimmick IMO. If you dont think so, think about it next time you fill your meth tank 
On your DSM no matter what you do with a SMIC whether it is a Large SMIC and methanol or just a SMIC, it is going to get HOOTTTTTTT after a run.
Gary runs it here and the only reason he hasn’t switched is his indecisiveness on which route to go next.
A good SMIC (not stock) and methanol will work, but if you factor in the price meth kit properly built as the way the cooling mist and snow performance kits come are half assed IMO and should be setup better, Methanol, and tuning
If you have a decent FMIC and piping you do NOT need methanol…ask anyone who does this for a living, Methanol is a band aid…unless you are running it as a primary fuel :D. Garys intercooler is hot after a run, and right now garys car is one of the fastest side mount cars in the country.
fmic now + meth later. cant go wrong with both
Did you not read???
With a proper FMIC and a decent fuel you don’t need methanol… You can go wrong as things can fail. It’s one more thing in the setup to make things more complicated.
Garys pump has failed on more than one occasion, he knew because he is ever mindful of things and has designed his own safety measures into his kit. I can see most people not noticing this during a run and well KABOOOOOOOM. Making a pull on a car that has been tuned for methanol on no methanol = a bad scene.
Keep it simple.
I use water/alcohol injection and NO intercooler. Works for me. The failure issue is there, as with any component. Your fuel pump could fail, too. That’s one reason to stay away from cheapie kits. A good pump alone is going to run close to $100. So when you see a “complete” kit advertised for like $250, stay far away from it.
Yes but does a supercharger get as hot air temps as turbo car. No.
The efficiencies of each are totally different.
Not to mention one isn’t being driven by hot exhaust gas 
I agree with Jay. For a street car get a good intercooler setup and if you want more, use meth on top of it. Or you can get the meth kit first to get a bit more out of your current setup, and then upgrade the IC later, but the preferred method is to get the intercooling squared away first.
Don your math doesn’t make sense because the meth isn’t used all the time, only under certain conditions (high throttle only or in boost only, etc.). I use 1 gallon of meth per 30 gallons of 93 octane (2.5 tanks of gas) in my daily driver and I’m spraying more methanol than anyone else I know of around here that’s running it as a piggyback system.
That 31 gallon mix at your prices is 30X2.80 + 3 = $87
31 gallons of 100 octane at your price 5.29 is $163.99…about double.
I do agree that unless you’re running methanol as your primary fuel, that a 100 octane race gas tune with very good intercooling that isn’t getting heat soaked may outperform the pump + meth setup. A c16 tune with good intercooling should definitely outperform it. However, you left out major benefits of a meth setup. Unless someone is going to roll around on 100 octane at great expense all the time, they have to drain their gas tank somehow, fill up with 100 octane, and change your tune before every time they want to hit the gas with that full power higher octane tune. With a pump + meth setup you just hit the gas any time you want and the meth is there immediately so you get your full blast. That’s a huge advantage, not a gimmick. The way to do this with 100 octane in a separate fuel cell with separate lines, fuel rail, FPR, injectors, and the engine management and tuning to control secondaries is more complicated, in my opinion, than a meth kit as we sell them. Obviously that 100 octane setup would be WAY more expensive too.
In the case of someone who uses race gas all the time because they always want the power there, they can’t go away from areas where they know they can find the fuel they’re tuned for. Bringing a drum of their chosen race gas with them in their car is obviously not practical. With my 1 gallon meth tank and my little 2 gallons can of meth I’m good for around 93 gallons of mix if I go on a trip. I just get 93 octane at a normal gas station and I’m good to go. Compare that to a full tank of race gas and an extra 55 gallon drum which probably amounts to less total fuel.
With the new meth injection pumps we have we haven’t seen a single failure. They’re the first ones to have methanol safe seals so yes some of the older pumps had issues when running straight meth, but I don’t expect any with the new pumps. We swapped out our customers old pumps for the new ones at no charge when they came out for anyone wondering. The brand we sell, Coolingmist, has worked with us in designing their tuning software, new components and more so we’re very happy with their service.
There are some cases like Spencer’s where he drives the car a couple times a month, only in the summer and mostly around town. He doesn’t mind running race gas all the time and for him I agree that is better than pump + meth. However when he goes to Carlisle with it or somewhere else out of town he gets his laptop out and switches to the 93 octane tune, turns the boost down and drives there and back like that. He loses whatever race gas was in the tank because he doesn’t syphon or pump it out somehow. Because going out of town is a rare thing he doesn’t mind so much, but for people who drive their car on the street on a regular basis, I think pump + meth is a much better option.
-Mike
You can’t really use that as the math because one gallon of Methanol will last you about 2-5 tank fulls of regular gas, so you really can’t use that as the math. You go through alot less meth than you do tankfulls of gas. Most people report filling up their tanks about every 2-5 tankfuls of gasoline.
Plus, it all depends on your driving haits as well, and where you have your spray set to come in. Like on my car for instance, when I get around to putting injection on my car, as well as a bigger FMIC, I will set my alcohol (I want to run Alcohol rather than Meth) to start around 12-15psi, because I am currently at 21-22psi. If I was to set the system to start spraying around say 5psi, I would be using a lot more because I hit 5psi on a regular basis.
Now, you can really benefit from using a larger FMIC and spray, because the FMIC will take down your temperatures as well as the spray. Using a properly setup injection setup can aid in many ways. Personally, I would rather run alcohol/water 50/50 because of alcohol being non-corrosive. A 50/50 split of alcohol and water is the most efficient, rather than 100% water or alcohol.
In some cases, I would say that running meth/alcohol injection is a bandaid, but not in all cases. Properly setup, it will allow you to run more advanced ignition curves because of the lower threshold for detonation.
As for running methonal for fuel, eh, not a good thing. Methanol has approximately half the stored energy of gasoline, and thus to get the same output out of a regular gasoline engine running on straight methanol, you would have to inject twice as much methanol as gasoline. gas miles would effectively be cut in half.
Running spray to lower intake temperatures rather than getting a FMIC, or SMIC, I would say is a bad idea. But, after you get a FMIC or SMIC, then want to get spray, that is when I wouldn’t say it’s a bandaid, because all you are trying to do is maximize your set-up. Just make sure you have the proper safety features set-up in the spray system, and check/verify they are working on a regular basis.
That’s all the better that they have pumps now with Meth safe seals, but that is only a small piece of the puzzle. Meth is very corrosive particularly to brass fittings, which is a huge part of the system as a whole.
The only real way to run Meth and not have to worry about the ill effects of Meth is to run 100% stainless fittings, meth safe lines etc…
Gary is sitting here next to me and states he uses 1 gallon of straight meth per 1 tank of fuel which is 14 gallons.
If Gary is running a smaller nozzle than you then that would throw the theory out the window.
Both of us sell software that allow for multiple maps that take nothing more than a key stroke to change…I am not sure what is hard about that.
This is not true…when you add methanol injection to a car you need to tune for it…you cannot just throw it on and say away you go. Thats like telling someone to throw nitrous on and give them the thumbs up. So in this instance you need 2 maps to fully take advantage of a pump gas and pump gas/meth tune.
When running methanol injection you need to lean out the air/fuel ratio and then add meth to reach your target A/F ratio.
If you are running methanol and you run out and have no way to switch maps what do you do, stay out of boost right, well not soo easy if you have a quick spooling car that is tuned dependantly on methanol…
My main point is that you can spend the money on a methanol kit, then the tune to get it to run properly, the methanol to use in it (which isnt alot but factor it in) and THEN spend the money on a full FMIC kit…Or you do a FMIC and not worry about it. If the time has been put into putting together a proper turbo kit/upgrades then methanol injection should not be needed.
You will need 2 maps regardless…So spend the money on a pump gas and race gas map and a proper FMIC kit. I think that Methanol is a waste of money if you look at the figures and it is a sales gimmick. Again a band aid.
Again this is moot…if you get the proper intercooler and turbo for your car there is no need to waste money on a methanol kit nor worry about a pump whether or not they are a new design etc…If its not there it cannot fail…Keep it simple
While I agree on driving habits…you need to have it on your car and use it for a while and see first hand how it works for you before you can really say this. Reports are reports, some kid cna be sitting on the other end of the computer saying he is getting 5 tanks when he doesn’t even own a car…first hand experience is different.
If you are running a properly setup car with a good fuel the benefits of methanol are minor. Again Methanol has an octane rating equivalant to 100 octane. If you are running a proper race fuel then meth is only going to help in lowering Intake air temps…and if you have the proper turbo and IC then the aid is going to be small…hence you dont need it dont waste the money…
I did not say run methanol as your primary fuel on the street, it is for the track and track only. Then you dont need an intercooler.
I agree with your last paragraph 100% except for the simple fact that again it is not needed if your turbo/intercooler combo are specd properly for your engine and fuel system…
If you insist on running a methanol kit you MUST make sure everything is in proper working order before everytime you run the kit…otherwise the results can be catastrophic!!!
Last but not least you cannot add a methanol kit and just go. The car must be tuned to run with methanol injection, and if you do not have 2 maps I suggest getting them both. You may run out of methanol or the place you get it from may be closed. Detonation is a killer.
Give this man a cookie!!! Thank you for pointing this out Tom…When we get a meth kit, honestly the only thing we end up using is the pump and controller…then all new fittings and stainless steel lines are used. I wouldn’t trust a neoprene line around a hot engine bay…accidents suck, so do fires.
We have found through experience that Methanol does not need to be used when a car is set up properly…Look at spencers car…he doesnt need it.
If anyone does not agree, then I suggest contacting some other tuners other than Mike or I for unbiased opinions.
To quote Corky Bell from Maximum Boost in the Intercooling chapter. Page73 last paragraphs fo the chapter, it pertains to water injection but can be extended to alcohol and methanol or any mixture
"What is Water Injection, and when is it needed.
Water injection is the spraying of a fine stream of H20 into the intake system. Heat absorbed upon vaporization of the water has a strong cooling effect on the hot compressed air exiting the turbo. The reduction in intake air temperature reduces the tendency to knock.
Don’t be too hasty to create a margin of safety of detonation based on an unreliable device. Water injeciton is best used when boost levels over 6 psi are deisred but no intercooler is present. Do not allow a situation to exist where the water injector is used as an excuse for improper air/fuel ratis. All things considered, you would be far ahead never to have hear of a water injector."
/ thread
Gary must be hitting the conditions under which the meth sprays far more than anyone else. Mine sprays above 5 psi which is a very low setting and all of my customers get more mileage out of a gallon of meth than I do. Most of them get 2-3 tanks of gas per 1/2 gallon of meth with the same kit and nozzle size Gary runs. In Gary’s case which is extreme that’s still 1 gallon of meth per 14 gals of gas. $42.20 for that 15 gallon mix vs. $79.35 for 15 gals of 100 octane, again at your prices. Still near double.
Don if you re-read what I said about the power being there every time you hit the gas with a meth kit I never said you don’t need to tune for meth. Yes you do, just like with race gas. I said you don’t have to drain the tank, refill w/race gas and load another map before each time you hit the gas and want your high octane power because the meth sprays automatically and that map is always on the car already. I agree there is nothing hard about changing maps, but instead of swapping fuels out and then having a laptop with you to change the map, with a meth kit you don’t turn anything on, change any settings, swap fuels or anything. You just hit the gas and the power is there any time you want it as long as you keep meth in the tank which is as easy as keeping gas in your tank.
When Emery swapped out to race gas it took around 20 minutes each time. He ran his tank down below 1/4 (evo tanks are small too) and pumped the rest out which took quite a while. Then filled it from gas cans and then changed his map. This is fine if you’re going to the track and have time and care to do it, but if you’re on the street and you want immediate power, that’s not possible.
If you have a good intercooler there’s still a large benefit to spraying methanol for it’s octane. 93+100 is still better than 93 alone regardless of whether you need the cooling or not.
-Mike
We’re not talking about water injection… Water isn’t 100 octane, in fact it isn’t a fuel at all.
I understand that water is not a fuel.
My point is this applies to water/meth/alky injection. It is no replacement for an efficient setup.
The point of this thread was whether meth and a SMIC were worth it or a FMIC.
Opinions aside. A front mount intercooler that is properly sized for the application and a turbo that is working within its efficiency is the proper way to set the car up. Anything else is again just a improper way to get the same results.
Does methanol injection work? Yes it does.
Is methanol injection a better choice than a good Intercooler? No it is not.
Is the price for a methanol injection kit worth it over the price of a good FMIC? No it is not. Why pay for something to work with an inefficient intercooler only to upgrade later. The question here is what would be more cost effective. If you want reliable power all the time run an efficient intercooler/turbo and pump gas on the street. When you want more power, have the car tuned on race gas and switch maps to a race gas map. Most piggybacks and standalones it only takes 2 minutes to change maps.
With a properly sized intercooler and turbo running in its efficiency methanol will not be needed. Will you see some power gains? Sure but as the system becomes more efficient the gains will be less and less.
So in the end, in terms of cost/benefit, FMIC > Methanol Injection.
In my personal opinion, the less variables to reach the same goal the better. Reliability is something that is hard to achieve when you modify a car, we all know that we have all modded cars. So anything you can do to keep things as simple and effective as possible the better.
It’s a good discussion. I’m glad this went somewhere positive. In the case of the DSM with a SMIC vs. an FMIC I’d do the FMIC and then add the meth kit on top of it for a street setup and then run race gas with the FMIC and no meth at the track. This is pretty much what I said in the first place. I don’t think you’d argue that pump+meth still makes noticeably more power than pump alone even after doing a nice FMIC setup. Yes of course this requires tuning to be a benefit…
In the case of cost/benefit you can’t make a blanket statement on which is better. I’ll give you an example for the other side since you’ve given one for the FMIC side. To be clear I don’t think either side is flat out better from a cost/benefit standpoint on every setup.
Take my legacy turbo daily driver as an example. For me to run my current turbo (stock US STi turbo) at the pressure level and flow I am without the meth kit I’d need:
FMIC setup - 750
fuel pump - 75
injectors - 450
semi decent fuel management (emanage+fuel harness&MAP sensor&harness) - 450
450 labor
2175+tuning
vs. what I did:
none of the above
meth kit - 470
labor - 350
820 + tuning
All prices are normal retail. I’d say my car makes as much power the way it is as it would with all that money spent and a pump gas tune, so for me the cost/benefit went the other way. I have basically replaced the efficient fmic setup, fuel system upgrades, and a piggyback fuel controller with my meth kit. I’m not saying what I did on my beater was the best way to build the car. If I had unlimited funds I would have done all those mods rather than just some of them, but I had to do a quick cost/benefit analysis just like our customers do meth injection was the clear winner in that department.
-Mike