Since Racing harnesses are Not a legal seat belt, if i was pulled over with a passenger over the age of 16, And had a Racing harness on my passagner, would my passanger be charged with lack of seat belt or would i be charged for somthing.
Dont turn this into a flame war about harnesses and I dont have one for my passanger, I just was wondering What would happen with that?
You need a regular seatbelt installed and working on top of the harness. The regular belt is what you have to wear in the eyes of the law.
harness aren’t legal seat belts? never knew that.
if the law is anything like it is here, the passenger gets charged for the lack of seat belt, but if they’re under 16 it’s your ticket.
correct…
a harness is not illegal… what is illegal is not using the factory supplied safety harness and it is also illegal to remove/modify the factory harness
there for it must be worn over top the racing harness so you are legally wearing your seat belt
thing with a harness you have to worry about is the angle its on because to much of an angle can compress your spine on a hard impact
I don’t know for sure …
How exactly you’re supposed to mount a 4 point and retain your 3 point is a bit beyond me. Mine uses the factory mounting locations.
I was told by a cop that if you install an approved 4/5 point (not APC) and have it inspected and approved (what you have to do for racing anyway) it is legal for use on the roadway. The problem isn’t that you have the harness, but that you installed it.
As for the passenger seat, I think you’d still be liable. It’s your car, and you performed the modification.
I agree with mr200, I asked a cop at last years “All About Cars” show as I was an exhibitor, and he told me pretty much the same thing. He even called in to verify it for me.
It must be an approved Harness (approved by who, I have no idea, probably either DOT or CSA) and must be professionaly installed.
You are allowed to remove your factory seatbelts if all of this criteria is met.
But do keep in mind, that like everything else, it is at the officers discression, if he somehow determines that your harness is unsafe you will still have a ticket to fight, just make sure you provide the documentation of installation and verify that the harness’ are approved and your off.
Aslong as your harness’ are not a problem & are approved, they are no different then standard belts in the the eyes of the law. Just make sure your not trying to hold down a baby seat with it and you should be fine.
Funny you should talk about this issue. Last month I had a honda come into the shop for a safety. Never issueing a safety with a racing harness before, I contacted the MTO regarding safeting a vehicle with a four point harness only.
The officer at the MTO admitted the same thing - that if a racing harness (4 and or 5 point) was installed properly, then it is was considered safe and a safety could be issued. Althought he also recommends the factory safety restrains be also kept in the vehicle as well; for the sole reason to keep the insurance company happy. Where he has seen in the past, in an accident situation that once the insurance company finds out that the occupents of that vehicle was not wearing the manufacture safety restrains, the legal dispute never ended.
Having that said. The sargent had to go, and so I have yet to fingd out the out come of the dispute. When some spear time, I telephone the officer back and see what the outcome ended.
If your passenger is over 16 they get the ticket. I have also heard that the driver can be ticketed if driver has G2, no matter age of passenger. Not to sure about the later.
I always tell my passengers to buckle up cause anything can happen. And I laugh when I read about kids dieing for not wearing a seatbelt. It has saved my life before.
(The G2 thing applies to passengers having a working seatbelt at their disposal. There must be at least as many seatbelts as there are passengers in a car driven by a G2 licensed driver.)
I didn’t know the MTO considers harnesses safe, based on installation. That’s cool to know. I wonder, though, what (and more importantly WHO) determines a ‘safe’ or ‘professional’ installation?
They likely want to see FIA or SFI-approved harnesses. But I don’t know about that …
SFI is required for sub 11.99 cars in 1/4 mile.
SFI used to be SEMA Foundation Inc. But they’re no longer affiliated with SEMA. Their guidelines have been accepted as the motorsports minimum requirement. But it’s not enforced. They leave that up to the sanctioning bodies. FIA is the same general idea, but on the international level.
Any SFI-approved harness will have a tag on it stating this, and it will be date stamped. Generally SFI approvals have a 2-5 year lifespan. Harnesses need to be reinspected every 2 years.
Apparently you need to send your harness back to the manufacturer to be inspected.
All of the sanctioning is for motorsports though, so I don’t really know how the government would treat it for on-road use.
Using an SFI-approved harness I guess will just give you a better chance of fighting it, should a cop decide to issue you a ticket.
With countless studies showing 4 and 5 point harnesses to be safer than conventional shoulder belts and miles ahead of lap belts (which it’s actually safer to just not wear) I can’t see any court not overturning the ticket. But with most cops operating off a check list with no real instruction as to WHY what is and what isn’t acceptable, they are very likely to issue a ticket for any grey area. So if “Non OEM harnesses” is on the checklist, you’ll get a ticket, even if it’s SFI or FIA approved.
I just saw harnesses that allow you to retain the factory harness. The harness I’m using does not. Literally mine bolts into where the factory belt was. It sucks, but it sounds like it’s another case where it is simply a judgement call. If you can make a good enough case for it to the cop, and he/she is understanding, they may not issue a ticket.
If you’ve got an APC $35 harness with loose bolts that’s only installed in 2 of the mounting points, you might have a harder time.
Either way, inform the cop as they mention the harness that you are sure it is safer than OEM and that you plan to fight the charge in court. Do so nicely, just as a “before you bother writing this up, I’m going to inform you that I plan to fight this on these grounds”
You’ll probably still get the ticket (hey, I had a cop try and give me a ticket for not running catalytic convertors on my 71 Javelin … and this was years before this latest “blitz”) just don’t let it slide. More and more I’m hearing stories of judges throwing entire cases out because they’re sick of their courts being full of kids with stacks of unsubstantiated tickets. Don’t let them get away with it, fight everything. Sooner than later a judge is going to challenge the government on the anti-performance stance they’ve adopted. We just have to keep fighting it. All it’s going to take is one person with enough coin and enough time to turn around and go on the attack.
If a judge suggests I remove equipment that is more likely to save my life in a collision, then I would ask him or her to get in a car with me. They can have a shoulder belt (or lap belt, since they want to be broad and encompass as many vehicles as possible) I’ll have my 4 point. Then we’ll hit a wall at 50 km/h.
Think they’ll want the shoulder belt?
Then you can offer up more information, like the quick release latch on the belts is designed to give the driver or the safety crew easier access to the release. Typically paramedics and cops have to cut the shoulder belt to get occupants out. Especially in side impacts where the car is compressed, typically trapping the release mechanism and the occupant.
Does Canada have a SEMA-style organization fighting for us? Who is our last line of defense? I honestly don’t know, but I sincerely hope there is a group lobbying for the rights of enthusiasts here.
MTO guidlines to not recognize SFI or FIA, they are recognized by racing organizations only.
The problem with running a 4 or 5 point belt on the street is this:
in the event of a roll over, you can’t wiggle out of the way of the roof coming down on your head. If you have a 3 point (factory) belt on it allows you to pivot your torso thus preventing your skull and spine being compressed by the crushing roof when your car is upside down.
If you have a roll cage in the car, then it will (if it’s a good one) prevent the roof from crushing you, but your head can still bounce off the bars.
Also, if your 4 or 5 point harness is bolted to the floor behind the seat, and then loops over the seat and not over a bar or something higher than your shoulders, when you need the belt (high force impact in front as an example) your body moving forward causes the belt to compress your spine.
I don’t think anybody wants a compressed spine.