lol. I love how when someone has any kind of morals they are narrow minded.
oh so you want your mom to die? and you want to be blind? oh. word. i see everything very clearly now. got it.
I am semi religous, I believe in god, but I do not attend church or anything. I am more like a person of faith lol. Anywho, that is just what I believe. if you have any questions read the post i made like 10 min ago. that pretty much explains it. I do not want my mother to die, but I do not condone stem cell reaserch. Like I said, it is against my beliefs. Also about the eye. I got one good one still so i wont be totaly blind lol. and there is a chance, not definate. Its my own fault.
Wow man, that was the most coherent thing I thing I’ve ever seen you post. While I don’t agree, at least I can respect your view.
I really don’t have a problem with JEG not supporting stem cell research, and neither should any of you. Part of living in a free country is having to live with people who you don’t agree with. If you don’t like that, pick a dictatorship that aligns with your ideals and live there. Then everyone will be forced to think like you.
What I have a problem with in this case is that a majority of Americans want this research done, and funded by the government, but Bush is imposing his view on the rest of us. However, as the elected president it is within his right to do so. The president is given that veto power, and congress is given the power to override it, but only with a large majority of support. They didn’t have that support, so the override failed. Basically it’s the checks and balances system in action. Some may think it failed, but I don’t think so. If the support for this was truely overwhelming, the people who voted in their representatives would have voted in people who could have got the override to pass.
THEY ARE BEING THROWN OUT ANYWAYS!!!
So it doesn’t matter if you think they’re little babies or not, they’re being destroyed either way. Choice A has them thrown out. Choice B has them used for science
You left out the fact that they could save lives and ease the suffering of millions of people. I find it morally wrong to throw the cells away when they could be put to use. When these cells get thrown away do they get a christian burial? Probably not.
You just don’t get it do you? You are so blinded by your one sided opinions that you can not even see other people’s point of views. I at least have the ability to understand where the other person is coming from, even if I do not agree. And you call me narrow minded.
Jeg
I don’t see how any rational person could say that they would rather an embryo be thrown in the trash than utilize it to save lives.
You should be arguing against the fertility clinics who dispose of these embryos.
Dude, they are throwing them out anyway…either way you cut it they are not going to become a baby…This seems to be something you’re not listening to. I could understand you being against scientific work to get people pregnant or even the creation of these embryos, that I suppose is a stance I can respect. But these already exist, the question is what do do with them, toss them in the garbage or use them for science…but no matter what the decision is, they’re not going to become a new human life. It’s not like if these aren’t used for stem cell research they’re going to become a baby at some point, if they’re not used for stem cell research they’re going in the trash can.
One way destroys all chance of life
The other may destroy that particular embryo’s ability to become a human life, but can be used to save the life of a living human.
So seriously please explain to me your point of view that tossing these in the garbage is somehow more inline with your morals than using them for science…
After you answer that, how about you post everything you know about the subject like where these things come from, etc… etc… and if you’re wrong, people will give you the correct information and maybe you’ll change your mind on THIS piece of legislation.
no, i didn’t.
how are those??? are they better than dead baby back ribs??? cause those gotta be the best evAr…next to dead baby kabobs…
anyways, Jeg, do you love your mother, i mean, how the hell could you be against something that could possibly cure your mother…thats bullshit when you say “thats just the cards that are dealt”…fuck that. i know that if my mother was dying from something, i would put every effort, every peny i had to find a cure for her…
…is it morrally correct to instead of using embryo’s that are going to be thrown out to cure peoples illness’s? or let these people die from fatal illness? denying someone who is dying the research to help save them in my eyes is morally wrong, fuck the embryo’s that dont mean a thing ,that arent going to be come little jimmy or sally…
and if theyre going to throw them out, they should send em to my house, ill eat them…sorry had to :lol:
Are there not programs to “adopt” these embryos? At Bush’s press conference about this, in an attempt to put a human face to the debate, there were several healthy babies there that at one time were abandoned embroyos, so I’m 99% sure there is such a program. Sure, some of these embryos are eventually getting thrown out, but at the rate that is happening there is still a chance that some of them will be adopted. Remove the veto, and I’m sure they would be destroyed that much faster.
You have to open your mind up a lot if you’re a pro choice, pro stem cell person to see the other side. But if you can see to the fact that those embryos can be a human life, and conceed that the other side believes every human life is sacred, regardless of the stage of that life, you can at least see their side. While I don’t agree with it, I’ll still try to defend JEG’s view for the simple fact that even when the left is correct, they still manage to be wrong. Your complete intolerance of other people’s views, if those views are based on their faith, is disgusting.
Me, I’m pro choice, pro stem cell research, pro right to die, pro death penalty… I don’t care what stage of life you’re at, I’ll gladly kill you.
[QUOTE=JayS] …if those views are based on their faith, is disgusting…
[QUOTE]
but thats what alot of people base theyre veiws on, what was taught to them in church…most pro life/ no stemm cell research ive talked to are extremely religious…i was also told the other night that my thoughts on religion are wrong, and so are everyones who arent cathloic :bloated: thats very true right?
This is AFTER the couple has already decided NOT to allow their embryos to be adopted.
_Were created for the purposes of fertility treatment.
_Were donated by in vitro fertilization clinics with written, informed consent of those being being treated.
_Were “in excess of the clinical need of the individuals seeking such treatment” and would never be implanted in a woman.
_Would otherwise be discarded, as determined by those seeking treatment.
_Were not donated by patients induced to do so by financial or other incentives.
Source: “The Stem Cell Research Enhancement Act of 2005,” H.R. 810.
So once again I say, these are NEVER going to become a human. EVER. Why toss them in the garbage instead of using them for science. But hey, thanks for playing the “let’s hate on liberals” game.
I really really fail to see how the “value of every human life” is better served by discarding these embryos than using them for science. Again, these embroys WILL NEVER BECOME A DEVELOPED HUMAN LIFE. IF NOT USED FOR RESEARCH THEY WILL BE DESTROYED.
If anyone read the bill, they would know this. Shit there are federal programs to urge people to give up their embryos for adoption. Bush is using this for easy political points and he is doing so at the expense of aiding millions of people. This isn’t some HUGE SWEEPING legislation commanding the use of stem cell research of all embroys not being used right this moment.
In late July [2002], the Bush administration’s Department of Health and Human Services announced it was making funds available to “support development and delivery of public awareness campaigns on embryo adoption.” The goal is to help couples better understand their options, or to advocate for a particular option – depending on political perspective.
but thats what alot of people base theyre veiws on, what was taught to them in church…most pro life/ no stemm cell research ive talked to are extremely religious…i was also told the other night that my thoughts on religion are wrong, and so are everyones who arent cathloic :bloated: thats very true right?[/QUOTE]
Look, I’m not trying to turn this into a religious vs athiest thread, I’m just saying, before you bash someone’s logic to no end, take the time to look at why they believe what they do. If one of the person’s core beliefs is that every life is sacred, and that by preventing government funding for this research might mean even just one of those embryos becomes a life, then they do have grounds for their arguement.
I don’t agree with their arguement, as I stated before, but I can at least be fair enough to see where they are coming from. And lets not forget, stem cell research is still going on, it just isn’t government funded. If a majority of Americans feel it should be, and that it’s a very important issue for them, they will vote accordingly next election. For me, while I feel the left has the correct opinion here, I have other things I feel much more strongly about that I feel they have the wrong opinion on, so regardless, this will not be a major factor in my voting next election.
pwn3d! Can’t argue with that…
up for liberal bashing!!!
So these people that signed the waivers saying the embryos cannot be “adopted” (I have to put that in quotes, I get creaped out just saying embryo an adopted in the same sentence) can’t change their minds? Even if tomorrow one of these couples decided they wanted to save them, they couldn’t? If they could change their minds, anything that could keep them a minute longer is preserving life.
But really, I don’t think that’s the president’s take anyway (based on some stuff I read since the board went nuts and won’t let me reply). He sees these as life, just like the vatican does. And because they are life he doesn’t want them destroyed. If you agree that some people view them as life, I suppose you can agree that simply destroying them is on somewhat higher moral ground than using them as someone’s chemistry set.
To put it another way, your 1 month old baby dies. Do you feel better if it is buried, or thrown in a blender and the parts used in someone’s chemstry set? While I don’t agree the two are the same, if you believe both are “life”, I can somewhat see their side. It’s still wrong, but that’s why we get to vote.
A dead whatever is no longer life.
I’d imagine embryos marked to be used for research would stay untouched and frozen longer than those marked to be destroyed…so there goes that one…
They’re going to be destroyed one way or the other. That’s what people just can’t seem to understand. The embryos that would be eligible under this law are now just going to be incinerated (i think, I don’t know exactly what the method is). THEY WILL NEVER, NEVER, EVER BECOME A HUMAN LIFE. EVER. WITH OR WITHOUT THIS LAW THEY WILL NEVER DEVELOPE INTO A LIVING HUMAN BEING…EVER. I cannot stress this enough.
No one is “saving” a life by not letting these be used for research. That’s the unreasonable argument. The people behind the president would have gotten their children with or without this law being in effect. The only thing that would change is less embryos will be discarded, tax payer dollars would go towards research. “Adoption” rates would stay on their current trend. THE ONLY OUTCOME FROM THIS LAW IS POSITIVE.
Congress (House AND Senate) already passed a law UNANIMOUSLY saying that embryos can’t be “farmed” purely for stem cell research, so there is NO CREATION OF “life” (embryos) ONLY TO BE “DESTROYED”.
Education about this issue would, I believe, get any resonable person on board.
Here’s my personal bizzare twist on things: I feel it is improtant to distinguish between “life” and “humanity”. Life, to me pretty much comes down to cellular activity and having a nervous system (i.e ability to near instanteneously react to stimuli). Worms, bugs, cows, platypi and later stage human embrios(the ones with a spine) have “Life”. I respect things that are alive, are somewhat aware and try not to inflict damage on them, and If life has to be ended in nedes to be done in a fashion that minimizes the suffering; this applies to salmon, chiken, cow and an aborted fetus.
Humanity is set of characteristics that distiguishes us from most animals. How you define it is a fairly philosophical questions but it has to do with learning. use of tools etc. I feel that even babies are not all that human 'till about month 3-4.
Early stage embrios are really less aware than a blade of grass, don’t have a response mechanism (i.e no pain), so I feel that experimenting on a fully grown lab mouse is far more “inhumane”.
ahh but you are wrong. These stem cells are full of cellular activity. Not only that but having a nervous system does not dictate feeling pain or anything. In fact you are far from the definiton of a nervous system. They are used to relay messages throughout the organism. While i disagree with the vetoand I think its imparative that this research continues on. I really don’t agree with anyone on when human life really begins. At each stage of development, it advances into more and more of what we “think” as a human. But this is the thing, it is human a short time after fertilization, it has human DNA. If you were shown the chromosomes of an embryo sample and compared it to a human adult, it would be very hard to distinguish the two. Its cells are as human as we are. Its cells are undifferentiated, true. But we all have undiffereintiated cells in us all, adult stem cells.
So in that i think that anyone’s argument that they aren’t humans, and aren’t alive is flawed. Because, when do they become humans, and why would you believe that? When i see a cell carrying out cellular respiration, i consider it alive like the rest of the scientific community. These embryos carry out that respiration, they are alive. And they are human.