[/quote]
lol… i didnt make that arm…some dude in china did…i had nothing to do with the development or manufacture of that arm so how does that failure have anything to do with me?
you sell stuff made in china? Nothing made in china is quality
except the women.
half the OEM parts on your car are made in china… just the ones that failed and you replaced with american made parts though.
Parts are made all around the world, parts come from everywhere. The difference between OEM and aftermarket is that the aftermarket does not have fitment, quality, or reliability regulations.
You sold the part…
i sold a brand new Garrett turbocharger to a dude in Alberta and after a few short months it required replacing… i guess that is my fault too right?
you know, because i sold it so i should have given him $1400+ back out of my own pocket because a brand new item didnt last forever?
OR
i simply help coordinate service between the customer and the actual manufacturer… that is of course if there is any service like that…and with Garrett there is… with unknown china-factory there is not nor was it ever implied.
perhaps you would like to find me a place that would have warrantied a part for which they werent responsible for the manufacture of?
call JRP and ask them if they warranty Tein coilovers? or does Tein do it?
call keystone and ask them if they warranty Tanabe RUCA’s? or perhaps that is Tanabe’s responsibility…
call Bings and ask them if they warranty Top Speed parts, i have a feeling they will tell you that it is Top Speeds responsibility, all the retailer / distributor has to do is confirm that yes, this particular customer did buy the item new from me.
but hey… good call trying to spin shit around to suit your own purposes.
IMO this arguement should be split into tech or chat if you would like me to explain the nuances of warranties to you since they seem to escape some.
Ok guys, here’s the game;
Whoever can withstand replying to the other wins.
Is lady luck on your side?
keystone covers all tanabe’s product.
GT
Central, or major suppliers especially those that represent out of country builders cover warrenty.
Even if it is sent back to the manufacturer generally you incur the cost then recover it yourself from the manufacturer after.
Central, or major suppliers especially those that represent out of country builders cover warrenty.
Even if it is sent back to the manufacturer generally you incur the cost then recover it yourself from the manufacturer after.[/quote]
very much agreed.
ive talked with af ew of the reps at keystone as well as at various makers of parts… and the relationship between keystone and some of the major parts makers is awsome…
ive been very impressed
GT
i have had years of experience with both keystone and JRP…
all special orders are final sale only… unless that policy changed this year…
ie. if Keystone doesnt have Tanabe Pro DD coilovers in stock, which they do not carry in inventory, then they are considered special order and are final sale… if you return it before using it there is a 20 - 40% restocking fee.
JRP will carry more items like that in inventory however, for things that they do not regularly carry in inventory the story is much the same.
more specifically for that RUCA… i did not sell it and i never did.
i coordinated group buys and that item was one of the items available in that group buy. i never listed that item on a site and there was never a warranty implied. i had nothing to do with the development and manufacture of it…at best my involvement was that of a broker in that all items were paid for in advance and any sort of possession i maintained of said item was for transport purposes only.
further more… considering the corrosion, despite the meager length of use, there is no way that this item would have fallen under the best of warranty programs anyways.
Titan, the user, did not inquire about a warranty with me. i assume that to mean two things… the guy is a mature tuner who understands what it is like to use parts like that and he also understood that i never expressed a warranty for the part…instead he took care of it himself… however, in that particular thread when he mentioned what he was doing to solve teh problem i quickly offered to assist him to save him $ on buying those rod ends from MC-Carr… he had already ordered unfortunately.
since then Mcmaster carr has changed their policy and does not ship to end users in Canada.
Bob, your post was irrelevant and i have no obligation to service those chinese arms seeing as how i have not had any association with them or like products (read: chinese made multi-link arms) in more than 2 calender years (those group buys began in 2003 and concluded in early 2004).
your post was meant to instigate an arguement for which you have none.
this statement is not correct, it is partially correct.
Keystone will “FACILITATE” the warranty for Tanabe, but Tanabe warranty’s the product.
facilitate in this sense means that keystone will accept the part and send it to tanabe for inspection, if inspection is required.
various things come into play here:
What is the nature of the return?
if the part was simply wrong, then of course keystone will handle the exchange, and quite quickly if they have the correct part in stock. that is not a warranty issue, that is a keystone issue.
if the part is clearll defective before install and is returned ASAP, then this is also a keystone issue and keystone will replace the part and return the defective part to Tanabe. Tanabe may then replace it if it was a QA issue. if it was a shipping issue then the courrier is responisble for coverage.
if the part breaks immediately then this is far more complicated… was it install related? this situation will usually result in Keystone taking the product and sending it back to Tanabe for inspection. Tanabe will make the final call.
if the part breaks after several months or more than a year of use then this is a far more complex matter.
Warranties cover only manufacturers defects… if your product fails for any reason other than that including but not limited to: improper install, negligent use from: mis-use, improper maintenance etc, accident or other, your item is useless and will not be covered under any sort of warranty unless you go the extra mile to make a stink about it and the manufacturer decides to pay out to shut you up.
is the part a regularly stocked item?
in the case of something regularly stocked, say a set of Eibach springs, then this complicates matters as well…
Keystone is a major distributor of Eibach products meaning Eibach and Keystone have regular shipments to and from each other… your return product will simply be added to one of the incoming or outboudn shipments…
this is exactly the same as if Greg at Overdrive needs to warranty anything with Keystone… Keystone may have drop offs at Overdrive 2-3 times per week… where i worked it was every morning…
when we had returns they were sent back on the keystone truck: this means that there was no costs of transport to bare on behalf of both the customer and the seller…
to get even more specific about these issues:
if greg has a customer come into his store and buys a Tanabe RUCA from him for $400 cdn+ Greg will accpet payment and place the order with Keystone (he may also call JRP but we’ll say keystone in this case)
if this occurs in march and 7 months later in mid november the RUCA rod end breaks on the user… what happens?
firstly… bob does not take a picture of that broken RUCA and post it on SON to try and make the point that Greg is selling inferior items and that Greg is responsible in some way for the failure and that this failure of the product is representative of Greg as a person and as an entreprenuer.
why does bob not do that?
because it is ridiculous to associate the seller with a product that he didnt make or develop. if the point of sale service was spot on… greg did his job.
the customer is upset and wants something to be done about it… his first move is to go to greg.
greg says: wtf? i have to see if this is covered
Greg DOES NOT give the guy a $400 refund and then try and work things out with Keystone who then tries to work things out with Tanabe.
greg calls Keystone
“hi keystone this is Greg, i have a customer here who has a Tanabe product that he bought 7 months ago that has failed. is this item returnable?”
“hello greg, this is keystone… Tanabe’s offers a limited warranty on its products, what was the nature of the product failure?”
“the rod end on the arm snapped. this was caused by corrosion that led to binding that led to the rod end snapping, i am sending images of the failure to you” click
“thanks for the e-mail greg, that sure is alot of corrosion, let me forward this to my contact at Tanabe”
two things happen… tanabe could say… whoa corrosion… those parts are not meant to handle that type of environment, as such it is impossible to claim that they did not meet their intended performance targets = no warranty
or
this is an interesting case, we will honour the warranty in the interest of supporting our customers.
if tanabe decides to warranty the product, Greg is not necessarily going to accept the product back… and certianly does not issue a refund.
the product would be replaced… Tanabe would send it out, or if Keystone has it in stock (which they wouldnt) they would send it out and Tanabe would send a replacement to Keystone on their next stocking order.
The warranty product would be sent to either greg or to the end user and Tanabe may request that the broken arms be sent back to them… if this is the case then greg may accept them and pass them off to Keystone when their truck comes by and keystone would add the arms to their inventory of items that need to be sent back to Tanabe…
when i have had mail order items that needed to be returned i was sent shipping labels from the manufacturer to place on the package and so i did not have to pay shipping. these were not car parts though.
half the OEM parts on your car are made in china… just the ones that failed and you replaced with american made parts though.[/quote]
Maybe it should be mentioned that practically NONE of the parts on an OEM Japanese car or North American car for that matter are made in China.
Certain components of parts may be, but the vast majority of parts are fully assembled in the country of the vehicle’s manufacture.
Just a FYI 8)
no
Bob cannot make a post that is critical of my practices without expecting a retort.
The fact that bob does this on regular occassion and the fact that i put forth an arguement that discredits his intended point is core to what Bob’s reputation is in the SON community.
this goes both ways however, people may disagree with my arguement and i may lose. however, by responding the way i have i accept others comments in response to mine…
why do i accept others comments?
well… because i can back up what i post, and bob will have to do the same when comments like his are made.
once a post like his is made, not necessarily by him, but by anyone, one of two things can happen.
either the post is deleted entirely because it is meant to instigate an arguement
or
the poster must accept that the person he antagonizes is entitled to respond in kind.
so how do moderators mod these situations?
well, it would be unfair to lock the thread before the one criticised has a chance to retort…
why is this unfair?
because it invites further criticism because there is no consequence to the original poster. if he is not proven wrong or at least immature then he has no motivation not to do so again.
what about deleting the thread entirely?
this is a good option, but only if done so right away, and not necessarily the whole thread but at least the comments intended to insight an arguement. once the arguement begins it is hard to remove them without people becoming upset.
one option, as greg has selected, is to seperate the posts into their own thread for the new issue to play out… if done so properly.
once the thread is seperated the topic of the new thread becomes solely the arguement, essentially, the arguement is sensationalized into to something more than it originally was.
the original poster likely did not intend for the initial comment to become an issue worthy of its own thread but now it is and it cannot reasonably be deleted.
instead, the arguement escalates and each person makes thier points to oppose the other.
then other forum users take interest and offer their points…
as has happened in the past the threads turn ugly and are ultimately locked once a moderator has determined that each of the initial partied have had their say and after a threshold has been breached whereby the arguement is no longer constructive but has become hurtful.
in the end, rarely does anyone win and the forum would have been better off if the initial comments were never uttered with the intent of causing and arguement.
but how do we prevent people from making posts like this?
what should we do if a person continues tomake posts like this regardless of the warnings, temporary bans and starting of new accounts?
or a more important question… should the poster be punished or the responder?
is it too much to expect that the person being antagonized should have to allow it to continue? i would say yes, it is too much to expect.
but these are higher level issues… beyond the scope of this forum…
half the OEM parts on your car are made in china… just the ones that failed and you replaced with american made parts though.[/quote]
Maybe it should be mentioned that practically NONE of the parts on an OEM Japanese car or North American car for that matter are made in China.
Certain components of parts may be, but the vast majority of parts are fully assembled in the country of the vehicle’s manufacture.
Just a FYI 8)[/quote]
if this were true then please explain the millions of lay-offs to American auto-workers…
i have extensive data from the US bureau of statistics to support the 18 million + layoffs over the last decade in the US
The US bureau of stats claims that there have been 168,775 MLE’s (mass lay off events) involving more than 50 people, from US based companies n the last 10 years. that is 8.5 million and only involves companies over 200 employees… keep in mind that more than half of the world companies have less than 50 employees and therefore could not be inlcuded in such a survey… instead they would be bankruptcies.
so no… it is not true that japanese cars are assembled from japanes made products. that claim would be equally true as saying that US made cars are all assembled from US made components…
there are at least 4 major manufacturing facilities along the QEW between Niagara and toronto that have shut down because the parts they used to build for GM and FORD and now produced overseas and imported.
the gentleman who owns Canadian Custome Fabrication, the facility that builds my multi-link, used to be an Operations manager at Tiercon… a company that built brake components for US car makers.
tiercon’s building is now empty along side teh QEW in Stoney Creek…there were several hundred lay offs in that instance and the parts that find their way onto the Us cars are not made in the US or Canada any more.
Well, it is true. There may be some components that are assembled in China or some other country. But it’s not close to 50%. The part supply chain is long, which is why you see the numbers you do, and the layoffs are exponential because cost cuts expand when they go down the chain. For every $1 GM can’t spend on a part because of legacy costs, say Magna loses 25% of its profit on that part, and in turn it’s suppliers lost 50% of their profit etc etc. At the bottom of the chain, things are being outsourced, but the majority of parts are still ASSEMBLED in the country of the vehicle’s origin. I don’t care where my L shaped piece of plastic was made, but I’ll care about the guy who is putting it into my car and checking tolerance and fitment etc etc.
That part kills me, about the warrenty.
Read:
Bing will not cover any of his products by warrenty, if they are to break due to natural corrosion.
Nice… especially on something used outside and in the winter.
That was hardly a group buy. You bought them from the manufacturer in bulk at reduced cost, and re distributed them to people on SON for a price that was most likely inflated for gain.
Sounds like a brokerage to me. Or maybe just a straight sell will no obligation attached. Either or, it’s all a joke…
I bet you paid less then half of what you sold them for. So don’t give me that.
Using the term groupbuy as a scape goat is always a good way to push onus on the buyer.
Last time I checked you were trying to sell Titan some of the QA1 ends anyways. Which still aren’t as good of a choice as he made. Really, I just don’t think he wanted to buy cheap ends from you. I don’t blame him.
Regardless, hide behind whatever drivel you plan on using to justify the fact that you sold pure garbage but bear no responsiblity over the parts. Thats fine.
But don’t sit here and act like you didn’t make money off them, while you copied their design for your own links.
There are many more factors pertaining to closures and layoffs besides cheap labour across seas.
Play out one and ignore the others. Things like increased efficiency, downsizing due to being non competitive, buy outs, union issues, as well as the impacts of a major customer taking a hit too.
It’s all connected and infinitely variable. There is one cause to all the downsizing. It’s multiple. You think American motor companies are getting hammered because of cheap overseas labour? No they’re getting hammered because of their disgusting pension fund, their diminishing market share, and the fact they build boring, one year to late, ugly cars.
Not, because of cheap 3rd world country labour. Your statistics mean shit, because you pull them out of context. Find a percentage of those layoffs that directly relate to cheap labour.
Your stats are generalized and then assumed to your specific interest.
Who are you kidding?
Minus the personal stabs this is a pretty good debate. I’m learning a lot.
Keep it up boys and keep the heat levels down.
all I know is that I purchased a western digital harddrive a while back and when it died I dealt directly with western digital and not the retailer who I purchased it from.
The way I see it, some businesses will offer a courtesy of playing the middleman with a manufacturer on your behalf but at the same time those businesses would take this in to consideration in their markup/profit margin. If Bing chooses not to offer that courtesy on some (or all? I dont know) of his products then that is his problem.
I’ve sold tons of parts to SON members and if one of them has a problem I’m sure as hell not going to deal with it. They can go to the manufacturer who is the one who provided them the warranty - not I.
So… on that point I’d side with bing that he is not responsible for that product after he sells it if he doesn’t want to be. If he never promised it to begin with, he is not in the wrong. If he did, that’s another story.
The rest of the stuff I don’t know anything about so I’m not going to comment.
Enjoy.