unless your wiling to cut away substatial ammonts of firewall , then it’s not going to sit behind the center point of the front axel… a rotary block is only 14"Wx18"Hx22"L… i don’t think your SBC is going to come close to that… and yeah a SBC can be bought and can be broungt down to the weight of a rotary… if your willing to spend the big coin on an all aluminum LT1 anyone have $25-50K hanging around? even used from a yard an LT1 is big bucks… and I’ll tell you what you put one under the hood and I’ll keep my 98cid 13B and we’ll race… all those parts you moved to rear to reblance the car now turns into turning moment weight… good stuff, so not only is the car pushing like a cow but the back end wants to walk around on you… you want more power be smart, go 20B or you wnt dominance anywhere you go put a 26B in. 26B with med power To4’s makes 1200ps. with Kai 04Z 's it makes 1800ps ( hp = psX1.2) this crap about the SBC being the be all to end all, is automotive hype. like the FWD and the ‘ram air’ trans -am… it’s all hype
LT1s are iron block. Used from a yard an LT1 is no more than 1000 bucks. They -did- come in cars other than the camaro/trans am. They were also in B bodies (that’s caprice/impala and roadmasters). And I’m not just talking shit on this one, hehe. A friend of mine recently bought an LT1 longblock from a yard for $800.
I can’t exactly imagine a twin t4 26B built for 1180hp (hp != ps x 1.2; ps = hp x 1.01389) being a frugal buildup, either.
Finally, about the SBC being hype… that is such bullshit. That’s like saying the RB is all hype, because all the kids talk about it being the be all end all “Race Bred” motor. They’re both solid motors and both have repeatedly made tons of power reliably. It’s just the same useless old jap vs domestic argument again. Give it a rest. They both have their merits and they both have their place in motorsports.
*BTW im not saying it’s the best, or even a good choice to put one into an FC. But your $50k for an “all aluminum LT1” buildup is farcical.
$50,000 for an LT1??? :nuts: I think that’s a little high. A quick google search found me a brand new all aluminum LS1 with all the fixins’ and 10.25:1 compression ratio, wiring harness, ECM, injectors etc. 320hp and 345tq for $6000USD I’m sure you can find it cheaper if you look. The turbo rotary motors lack of reliability is a rather stark contrast to the SBC’s proven record. To discount the engine so quickly would be, I think, unwise. I know that Adam H. (Probably the fastest guy around a track on SON) would chuck his built KAT in a heartbeat if he could have a built V8 under the hood of his S13.
really? crated LT1 aluminum block from with FI setup is~ $50K as was quoted by those V8 rx7 idiots on rx7club… the summit racing & JEG’s build up is ~ $23K
an Iron block is going to push you over the top no matter what… your weight balance will go even farther intothe drain… face it a V8 is NOT the answer to everything… also a 4 rotor build up would be the same as buying a new V10 hemi I can build a 4 rotor with a pair of PFC/E6X/SDS systems and a pair of GT28RS’s for less ten the cost of a
The turbo rotary motors lack of reliability is a rather stark contrast to the SBC’s proven record.
That’s a retarded statment, your regurgitating crap from 78’ when their actually were problems… if the SBC was as good as everyone thinks then I don’t think it would be down at the bootom of the list for people who build aircraft, aircraft require reliabiltiy, power, smoothness of operation the rotary is the best selling engine in the world for aircraft right now. LT1 is used by some simply becuse you can buy them crated and replacment parts are cheap, but it’s well known that your sacrificing allot to do it, power to weight ratio is lower then that of a 13B /20B the vibration and the fact that if a piston does go… the whole enigne goes… people have flow 100’s of miles on a blown rotor becuse the other one works…
I can’t exactly imagine a twin t4 26B built for 1180hp
well then why do you feel qualified to comment on it ? 4 rotors are built in Japan every month go read an Option/ Option 2 mag for details on them…
I can’t exactly imagine a twin t4 26B built for 1180hp
I’ll give you that… but don’t assume that a SBC belongs and wil improve every car it goes into… that’s Bullshit!
avery your rx is mint dont zlatko it by putting in a 350 rebuilt that 13b!!
dont zlatko it :D/
HAHAHAHHAHAHAHA
seems to me that half want to bastardize it and half want it 13b
HMMM i got a 13b re already
time to save for reuild kit…
May I ask where you are getting these numbers? The LS1 is Aluminium and has heads that flow damn near perfect (considering manufacturing practices they are perfect). Boosted LS1 will get you all the power you need. If you want Lingenfelter Performance will sell you a TT 427ci (LS1 race block) for 45k, 3 year warranty too for 725hp. It can be done much cheaper though.
Edit by El, can’t you post without sounding like a complete ass? Try to play nice and remember you’re still a newb
did you read the rest or did you pick out the parts that you can play with infinitely… eg: price points… for a fully built Z06 motor crated from GM people were saying $50K… the price of $24K came from a guy who buys them ( Jegs/Summit), for a very large oldschool aircraft he builds. Personally I couldn’t ive two small crapsabout the price… thier are way better engines out their for less money.
Or are you even aware of things like CofG, brake center, turning moments, weight distribution, load balance, understeer, destabilized suspension… but you do NEED to know that… apparently the SBC has it’s very own set of physical laws that over comes all these points where ever one is put, no matter what the vehicle… all will be perfect. Glad to see your brainwashing took. You can now call your self jimbob and watchs lots of NASCAR without falling asleep after the 8th lap and really believe all the hype GM lays out for you…
For the most part, not many people really care about all the specifics.
If the car can be made relatively quick with torque down low, RELIABLE for someone who is not an uber tuner, it’s all good.
Sure it will never handle as well as a modded FC, but then again, many who do the swap don’t really care THAT much. Bottom line is tha tthe car will still handle well, albeit, not as well.
In a STOCK Fox body Mustang, I have pulled on Subarus, FC’s and S13’s on onramps. Driver plays into it way more than your car does.
Out in Picton area, on the way to Shannonville from the cottage I was driving my friend’s mother’s 97 Golf CL…it was stock. I pulled the hell out of a lowered S13.
The Golf is a crap box in stock form, I still pulled a “well balanced” car like there was no tomorrow.
Give me $10,000, I will build an Fc with a V8 or a turbo V6 that will rock the socks off a $10,000 13B…all day long with no fear of blowing up.
I know that turbo rotaries can be made stout and reliable…not many people can afford to build a reliable AND fast rotary. I blew two motors up on my TII and got sick of it.
Not many people can deny the fun factor of a lightweight sexy little RWD import with tire SHREDDING torque for a low dollar. not to mention the drift potential. It would be a great drift car.
I’m not arguing BETTER, I’m arguing practicality. I’m saying that yes, for the money, a Piston engine is more relaible and will produce more results for a LOWER dollar.
Yes yes, I know, it won’t handle as well…it still will ahndle better than most peoples’ lightly modded FWD cars and many poeples’ poorly modded S chassis cars. All this doesn’t matter if you can’t drive. If you CAN drive, you can overcome any downfalls, capitalize on the good points and improve on teh bad points…OR JUST BLOODY WELL HAVE FUN.
Who cares what it “right” or “worng” with a motor?
I’m all about having the most fun for the lowest price.
so what I read is, you weren’t good enough to tune or build a rotoy properly, instead of actually taking the time to learn about it and do it right, you went the way most northamericans do and took the easy way out of it by getting a SB.
Give me $10,000, I will build an Fc with a V8 or a turbo V6 that will rock the socks off a $10,000 13B…all day long with no fear of blowing up.
put your money where your mouth is, my 13B is ready for yours or ANY FC V8 and I spent @ 1/2 that your dollar figure… frig $10G will build up a 4 rotor twin turbo that will make just about any V8 short of an Ilmore or Cosworth blow it’s cookies.
Yes yes, I know, it won’t handle as well…it still will ahndle better than most peoples’ lightly modded FWD cars and many poeples’ poorly modded S chassis cars. All this doesn’t matter if you can’t drive
North American Mediocrity at it’s finest… people wonder why we don’t see the better JDM and euro cars over here… this is a perfect example of how it’s ’ just fine’ to accept less…
wasn’t looking for a win here, I don’t think I’ll ever win agians the hoards of V8 devotees… ( and frankly I don’t know as much about V8’s as I should to argue effectivly as I cound) What I argue against is the fact that, most people that are V8 fans, seem to think it’s the grand unified equation of all motoring… they are not a great eninge, they are good, I had one in my 91’C/K that was still after 490K KM … but that’s a perfect place for it, in a truck. RX-7 was built around the front mid enigne design, the only car with a front mid engine… not the V8, not matter what you try to say it’s not the right engine for the car. period.
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Yes, you’re right, I don’t know how to tune or do not have the financial resources to do so. I know about the motors…I know that I CANNOT afford to build a competent rotary motor. Like many north americans.
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$10,000 includes price of car and paying someone to do the work with bolt on parts. I’m not a tuner, don’t have a shop, do not know how to fab…therefore pay other’s to do a lot of the work. I’m not a mechanic…while i amy know about cars and bikes, it doens’t meant hat I can fix tehm or work on them.
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Yes, North American Mediocrity at it’s finest. Welcome to Canada eh. It’s not a question of mediocrity…it’s a question of personal taste. ie what do you want out of YOUR car and WHAT CAN YOU AFFORD? If we were all rich or all had access to infinite shop time…it’d be a different story. My point in the quote that you quoted, was that THE CAR IS SECONDARY. DRIVER IS FIRST. Learn how to drive before you buy the BEST OF EVERYTHING. I’ve spanked many a rotary around a bend, with far inferior cars and motors…it’s a driver thing.
Why don’t you quote the rest of my post…like the stuff that matters? :roll: :roll:
ie:
I’m not arguing BETTER, I’m arguing practicality. I’m saying that yes, for the money, a Piston engine is more relaible and will produce more results for a LOWER dollar.
Yes yes, I know, it won’t handle as well…it still will ahndle better than most peoples’ lightly modded FWD cars and many poeples’ poorly modded S chassis cars. All this doesn’t matter if you can’t drive. If you CAN drive, you can overcome any downfalls, capitalize on the good points and improve on teh bad points…OR JUST BLOODY WELL HAVE FUN.
Who cares what it “right” or “worng” with a motor?
I’m all about having the most fun for the lowest price.
We’re not all tuners like you. Some of us pay people to work on cars, do not have time to tune them all day and NEED them to start whenever we need it to.
I know, I know, if you can’t afford to pay, don’t play, right?
Well, I can…I can afford to mod the car with the most bang, for the least buck with the least blow up…
Hence KAT…not SR for me.
In WHO’S eyes?
Does it really bother you that much?
Don’t get me wrong, a nice tuned rotary gets my juices flowing…but personally, so does a beast of a V8…
I like cars…period. Some are good for this, and some are good for that.
Who cares what he drives or what they like? It’s their car.
this is moving away from a technical V8 vs rotor to a personal contests of , “my driving is better, then your motor is” which makes no sense. what YOU do with YOUR car is your deal. But it’s not the BEST option like allot of V8 people seem to think. It’s not about what is the cheapest or or the most dumbed down way to run the engine… the V8 is NOT the best engine for EVERY CAR. and especially not the FC… the design of the car the layout of the engine bay the suspension geometry … not designed for it. V8 lovers seem to think it makes it a better car… it does not. This is the argument.
In WHO’S eyes?
Does it really bother you that much?
Don’t get me wrong, a nice tuned rotary gets my juices flowing…but personally, so does a beast of a V8…
I like cars…period. Some are good for this, and some are good for that.
Who cares what he drives or what they like? It’s their car.[/quote]
The car was engineered and designed to take advantage of the compact, low mass, smooth, high reving motor. Mounting points, crash tests, and center of gravity was considered when the car was built. This is by a team of engineers.
They say it’s the wrong motor for the car. Your going to disagree with them?
You’re changing the vertical, lateral, and front to rear weight characteristics, as well as some other not so understood but equally as important values when you add that motor.
dude… rotorkami… I believe you are very knowledgeable in the physics or racing, chassis setup, etc and I’m sure you’re equally knowledegable in building up rotaries. Please do not see this as a personal attack but rather as a vivid discussion. The way you answered my post made it seem like you didn’t read my post carefully.
I’m saying this because you cut off my quotes, putting them out of context, and you ignored my point about the LT1 being iron block, as well as it being dirt cheap (I can’t even contemplate how much RELIABLE power you can make with $50k into one). You made it seem like I said a 26B cannot be built for 1180hp, whereas what I actually said was that I cannot imagine anyone doing so for cheap, especially for cheaper than a domestic buildup.
BTW an LS1, which is all aluminium, weighs barely 50lbs more than a KA. I don’t know how much a twin turbo rotary weighs so I cannot compare but I believe it is also within 50lbs of a twin turbo rotary.
However, I never ONCE said anything about it “improving every car it goes into”. Dunno where you came up with that one. I totally agree with your argument that it destroys all the benefits gained from a front-midship design as is found in stock RX-7s. All the other stuff is bullcrap tho 
no one’s 'eye’s, it’s not about personal taste, it’s about basic car design , physics … you know the stuff that goes into amking a good car or bad… the RX-7 was not designed with a magic SBC rearrage car button. What bothers me is people who try to argue about technical issues that aren’t doing any technical arguing… personal, emotional, political… who cares… loving a V8 does make it the ‘right’ enigne for an RX-7. To do what it was designed to do… you wanna go straight like most of the chaff. then fine do so… but don’t try to say that becuse it’s got low end TQ and goes 'straight real good like ’ who cares about cornering or handling in general, makes it betterr then it was… I can build a rotary withlots of torque, where it is and how long it’s at powerband peak is up to me. but coparing a V8 rpm limit to the rotary rpm limits then looking at the powerbands… torque may have moved up but it’s still there and still in good numbers… how the person drives the car has NOTHING to do with the technical merits of either… that’s NOT the discussion…
In WHO’S eyes?
Does it really bother you that much?
[/quote]
I GUARNTEE I KNOW MORE THAN YOU!!! Okay now I’m starting to not like you -El Hamtaro
mechanical engineer with a focus on vehicle dynamics who worked with RIT forumla and Mini-baja every year as a student…so unless your a student at ETS and helped build that beautiful forumla car of theres (hand built monoque) then you dont know shit.
now do yourself a favor and explain how each of those plays a factor in a street car…
and if for some fuckin reason you can explain how these things are perfect…with a GODDAMNED front macpherson strut suspension and SEMI-TRAILING ARM REAR…then i would like to see it posted here…
oh yeah i helped with one of the 5 LS1 RX-7s in Rochester NY…each came out roughly 50 lbs underweight and the one that is a track car toy was cornerweighted at 50.5% front and 49.5% rear distrobution and 50/50 side to side…had to add balast for when he was sitting in the car though
BTW an LS1, which is all aluminium, weighs barely 50lbs more than a KA. I don’t know how much a twin turbo rotary weighs so I cannot compare but I believe it is also within 50lbs of a twin turbo rotary.
with a single turbo a 13BT can weigh in at 70–75kg with a twin 80kg with a built engine I can have a twin down to 55-60kg. cost on the built enigne is not much more then a normal build up. a full 4 rotor weights in at 160kg
… you guarentee it huh, see this is just the same thing as you ‘knowing’ that the V8 is that much better’ … you really don’t know what My degree is in, how long Iv’e had it, or how long I’ve been tunning and building cars nor what i’ve driven and the series i’ve raced in. yet you Guarentee , without ANY knowledge of me that your better… of course you are.
now do yourself a favor and explain how each of those plays a factor in a street car…
what? your diatribe on yourself? not sure? how do YOU see it affecting a street car:?:
you might want to rewrite that post as you made no sense throught it… and you fleft out allot of info in the final post about the LS-1 rx-7 such as new spring rates and sway bar settings brake centers and strut placments… also was this an FD or FC…